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"The secession-minded aren’t alone in making plans for a convention. Others backing the so-called “con con” include advocates of gun rights, health care, clean water and abortion, all of whom would like to wedge protection for their stances into the state constitution.
Additional items that could land on the convention menu include term limits, budget and pension reform, campaign finance rules, judicial reorganization, appointing versus electing judges and redistricting."
Here is the chance for upstate New Yorkers to break free of the massive block voting in downstate, which skews the politicians to the left and discounts or ignores the legitimate concerns of those who reside north of the PA border. The sovereign state of "Upper New York" would address those things that concern the people of the region without having to kowtow to the special interests that control downstate. See link.
"The secession-minded aren’t alone in making plans for a convention. Others backing the so-called “con con” include advocates of gun rights, health care, clean water and abortion, all of whom would like to wedge protection for their stances into the state constitution.
Additional items that could land on the convention menu include term limits, budget and pension reform, campaign finance rules, judicial reorganization, appointing versus electing judges and redistricting."
Here is the chance for upstate New Yorkers to break free of the massive block voting in downstate, which skews the politicians to the left and discounts or ignores the legitimate concerns of those who reside north of the PA border. The sovereign state of "Upper New York" would address those things that concern the people of the region without having to kowtow to the special interests that control downstate. See link.
I'm curious if the aspect of "urban" issues would be discussed, as Upstate NY isn't monolithic in terms of concerns and issues. I say that because it seems like this comes from a place that is more rural, small town focused versus Upstate as a whole.
Then, even if Upstate becomes a separate state, are there going to be any government structural changes or is it just going to be a separate state with the same structure?
I'm curious if the aspect of "urban" issues would be discussed, as Upstate NY isn't monolithic in terms of concerns and issues. I say that because it seems like this comes from a place that is more rural, small town focused versus Upstate as a whole.
Then, even if Upstate becomes a separate state, are there going to be any government structural changes or is it just going to be a separate state with the same structure?
The actual separation of NYS into 2 or 3 states will be long and complicated. So before considering what the governmental structure of the separated parts will look like, the hurdle of separation must be gotten through first. There will be a huge pushback from big cities like Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse etc., which have many residents on the very generous NYS Medicaid, SNAP, and other welfare programs. School districts and the various SUNY campuses would present big obstacles in any separation agreement.
You are correct: It's the rural, upstate small town (village) and small cities, where citizens are smarting under the politics of New York City and the leadership of Andrew Cuomo.
The actual separation of NYS into 2 or 3 states will be long and complicated. So before considering what the governmental structure of the separated parts will look like, the hurdle of separation must be gotten through first. There will be a huge pushback from big cities like Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse etc., which have many residents on the very generous NYS Medicaid, SNAP, and other welfare programs. School districts and the various SUNY campuses would present big obstacles in any separation agreement.
You are correct: It's the rural, upstate small town (village) and small cities, where citizens are smarting under the politics of New York City and the leadership of Andrew Cuomo.
I don't know it is Andrew Cuomo or just small town specific in terms of impact or even the benefits aspect, which many small town/rural people get as well. I think before separation should be considered, government structure should be looked at, as it plays a part in taxation and is something that has been an issue regardless of who is in leadership positions, party affiliation, representation, etc. Separating and then keeping the same government structure is still maintaining a portion of the insanity that said folks want to break away from. Some of this could be done now, if people are open to forming a new governmental identity that tries to offer less "restrictions" for the greater good. So, I'm curious as to how far ahead those that want to separate have thought about this.
The actual separation of NYS into 2 or 3 states will be long and complicated..
..and impossible.
Assuming you could get the idea on paper and approved inside of NYS, it would also need to be approved by Congress. For the very same reason that some people are in favor of a split NYS, Washington would never sign-off on it.
The feeling is that the Northeast already has too much representation in the Senate. Splitting NY into two states would add another two Senators from the Northeast, apparently giving this section of the country even more voting power. Ironic that the reasoning behind a split at the State level is the reasoning against it on a Federal level.
If the concept does develop legs, it is likely the alternative "dual-state" approach would be considered. That is where NY remains one state from a Federal standpoint, but is split into two "regional" districts, each with their own government.
On a conceptual level I am in favor of splitting NY into two states (depends on the actual details). Everything I have read about the "dual/regional" approach, however, looks like that would be a disaster.
The idea of a Constitutional Convention is also a little scary. With some of the junk that Cuomo and the NY legislature has jammed down our throats in recent years, I have little faith that constitutional changes would have ANY positive effect. It is more likely they will propose changes that increase the power of government at the expense of the people.
I don't trust these bozos to write their own names. The thought of them re-writing the state constitution is frightening. While there is certainly potential benefit, I file this under the "be careful what you wish for" heading.
There is no way the state can be split apart. That would require the approval of NYS voters and the state legislature over a period of several years with multiple votes. It also requires the approval of the US Congress and that is NEVER going to happen. Never.
Besides, if it did ever come to pass through some fluke, it would leave Upstate with nothing. The region would have three or four million people. There would be maybe three or four members of Congress and five or six electoral votes. We would be like Kansas or South Dakota and have zero influence in Washington. SUNY would collapse. State parks would close due to inability to fund them. There would be a declining tax base to support the services and needs Upstaters expect. State services and funding for hospitals, schools, health care etc. would disappear.
And if you think it is Downstate that has damaged Upstate consider the fact that most Upstate members of the state legislature are Republicans in gerrymandered districts. They are as much career politicians as Downstate Democratic members. However, while Upstate returns those Republican hacks to office every two years (many face no Democratic opposition at all) they have done NOTHING to revitalize their own region. Members of the highest paid state legislature in the nation, Upstate Republicans have often held power for decades as their districts lose jobs, population and the tax base. They have enriched themselves as Upstate struggles to survive.
Furthermore, Downstate is the economic engine that drives the state. That roaring Downstate economy and growing population provide most of the tax dollars to support infrastructure improvement, the SUNY system, state parks, school funding and the list goes on.
Putting these elected Upstate boobs in control of an actual state would only hasten the region's decline.
Electoral votes... by your logic, maybe we should look into consolidating all of the northeast. Or even the entire east coast. That would create a superstate with enough electoral votes to effectively control national elections.
The reasoning behind the talk of a split is that many folks feel disenfranchised. One large voting block (downstate) effectively controls the politics in Albany. I'm sure they would rather have five or six electoral votes which express _their_ interests, rather than having their voices drowned in a sea of 29 electoral votes that do not.
I won't get drawn into the R vs D debate. Which party is prevalent in which region is irrelevant. Both sides are career politicians looking out for themselves. They do what they need to get votes (or prevent the other party from getting votes). The blame for any upstate lack of revitalization cannot be laid at the door of a single political party.
Downstate is the economic engine that drives the state because that is the way downstate wants it. The area has the political clout to make sure things go their way.
The water situation is just one good example. Entire towns were flooded to create reservoirs for NYC drinking water. The Catskill Watershed Corporation and NYC have sweeping powers to control land use and development in the Catskill region... it is next to impossible to build a home, let alone commercial/industrial space in the area. NYC has a vested interest in making sure upstate stays "un-revitalized." Upstate "struggles to survive," in part, because it is hamstrung by a state government that puts NYC first.
Would a separated NY upstate be as much a financial powerhouse as the separated downstate? Of course not. It is impossible to compete with New York City - but no one expects to.
Yet 49 other states manage to survive (or even prosper) without NYC. They even have state parks, schools and other infrastructure. Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire... just a few of our close neighbors that get by pretty well without a mega-metropolis to carry them.
As mentioned in my other post, I agree that it could never happen. But this odd belief that the upstate could not survive without NYC is wishful thinking.
One could make a similar argument for the other side... without upstate "conservative" voters/representatives keeping pressure on Albany, the "downstate" portion would quickly fall apart as a 100% progressive government quickly expands spending and entitlement programs to an unsustainable level.
The fact is, both "states" would find a way to make it work for themselves and their residents.
Regardless of the impossibility, a public discussion would be healthy. Upstate better understanding downstate and vis a versa would be a good thing. The concept behind our representative government it to keep the little guy in the game (as opposed to the majority rule mob idea). If that little guy wasn't getting bowled over so often in NYS, the talk of a split would not be so loud.
Sign me up for the convention and any attempts to restore our gun rights and any realistic attempt to separate upstate and downstate.
Ny is consistently ranked as one of the least free and highest taxes states. Its not a coincidence, it's because of downstate and their political ideas.
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I always enjoy reading the posts how NYC and her water system has so hamstrung upstate even though the reality is it only effects the Catskills region much of which is state park lands. At the time NYC started this system the primary industry of the region was the hotels and summer resorts which started disappearing in the 60's. So now the bulk of the region is vacant land with no economy to drive it, even if the watershed acres were available for development what difference would it make.
What about all the industries in the upper Hudson and Mohawk Valley and Southern Tier, gone. How much population has been lost in every upstate city of Albany to Buffalo and down to Binghamton? You can blame the NYC Metro all you want but if the state could be split what economy would the new upstate provide beyond selling electricity and water Will the corrupt politicians be voted out, will the over reaching unions be cut off, will consolidation of services occur to reduce overhead?
A lot of questions but realizing what will be left on the table to survive on will be the biggest challenge.
I always enjoy reading the posts how NYC and her water system has so hamstrung upstate even though the reality is it only effects the Catskills region much of which is state park lands.
My comments regarding the watershed were presented as "one good example." Of course it is just one region and just one factor, but it is still an example of the prioritization of downstate at the expense of upstate.
Your example of the hotel/recreation industry is just as narrow an example of one small section in the Catskill region. It is certainly not the fault of the watershed that Monticello is no longer the vacation destination it once was. However, NYC DEP (and to a greater extent, downstate's power in Albany) is certainly a factor in whatever it might try to do to reinvent itself.
If you want to get out of the Catskill region, look further upstate. Due to the SAFE Act (which was the result of downstate political maneuvering) several companies have left NY and taken their jobs with them. Not only did this ridiculous law needlessly take away rights from law-abiding citizens, it also added to their region's economic decline. None of them wanted it, none of them see benefit in it Get north and/or west of Westchester and every county (except two) has drafted formal resolutions opposing the SAFE act.
It is no one single item. It is a combination of many things across many areas of NY. The point is that there is an obvious disconnect between downstate and upstate. It is not even a right/wrong issue. It is simply that what is right for one group isn't necessarily right for the other. Sink or swim, people should have adequate representation in government and not be constantly bullied by a distant majority with a completely different set of needs.
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