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I guess Owego could also fit, as Lockheed Martin has a MS2 Division plant in the area. Kraft Foods also has facilities in Lowville and Walton. H.P. Hood is in Oneida. There are some others, but it may be a matter of degree.
These are all positive things, but they aren't the same as a billion dollar company essentially being created upstate from whole cloth in a decade. Chobani is a major outlier and I wonder what it takes to make it less of an outlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hvexpatinct
I am seeing my peers being priced out of Dutchess in favor of Ulster, Columbia, and Greene counties right now (note that there isn't anything really great going on in Dutchess right now, but the tax burden has become prohibitive).
I especially worry about the locals in historically depressed but suddenly trendy areas like Delaware county - the likelihood of them benefiting from the cottage industries is low.
Yea! This tourism industry and relocation thingn works to a certain extent, but there needs to be something else that creates larger scale change and employment. New York as a state (and the city in many ways) was at its most prosperous as the center of a large supply chain network of goods and as a first port of call for domestic and international immigrants who fanned out from there and brought or added to industries upstate.
So far, I have seen this on a small scale from my vantage point where people from parts elsewhere, including a lot of New Yorkers from upstate, who made their connections and got their connections and developed certain skills downstate and then relocated upstate (sometimes as a return home) with those intact and made good of it. I think this can be a workable and prosperous model, but how can this be scaled?
These are all positive things, but they aren't the same as a billion dollar company essentially being created upstate from whole cloth in a decade. Chobani is a major outlier and I wonder what it takes to make it less of an outlier.
Yea! This tourism industry and relocation thingn works to a certain extent, but there needs to be something else that creates larger scale change and employment. New York as a state (and the city in many ways) was at its most prosperous as the center of a large supply chain network of goods and as a first port of call for domestic and international immigrants who fanned out from there and brought or added to industries upstate.
So far, I have seen this on a small scale from my vantage point where people from parts elsewhere, including a lot of New Yorkers from upstate, who made their connections and got their connections and developed certain skills downstate and then relocated upstate (sometimes as a return home) with those intact and made good of it. I think this can be a workable and prosperous model, but how can this be scaled?
To be honest, it doesn't matter if it is done in the way Chobani has does it or in a different way, as long as there is some sustainable economic growth, I believe it would be embraced.
You could actually say that Corning Incorporated was Chobani over a century ago, its precursor started in Brooklyn and later relocated to the Southern Tier company town.
Ironically, Chobani took over a Kraft plant that was closing. Kraft actually had and still does to a lesser degree, has a pretty big presence in Upstate NY. H.P. Hood and Fage are also in the same vein as Chobani. So, I believe that there is room for similar companies to be formed Upstate.
I will say on the flip side that the Muller Quaker Dairy plant in the Batavia area did close. However, that may a possibility for some interested in giving it another go and it would be right in between Buffalo and Rochester. So, a skilled workforce is in close proximity.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 06-19-2017 at 08:40 PM..
I'm a downstate transplant to Columbia County. Hard to give up that 5 hour round trip commute from LI to NYC every day in favor of a 25 minute drive in to Albany after I was offered a transfer for the same money. Here's a couple of things I've noticed.
The locals have to deal with 2 types of 'outsiders'. People like my family that they fear want to develop everything and make it look like where we came from. Then there are the weekend getaway folks that actually didn't want any development because it spoils the rustic charm. We ended up with some development but it was done on a pretty small scale and on the town's terms as far as aesthetics. Now we have a supermarket and pharmacy and they do provide jobs to locals and HS kids even if they're in retail. Still have the farmer's markets and orchards.
Another thing you see is the development of a place like Warren St in Hudson full of galleries and restaurants. I'm not sure how many people are being pushed out by this or benefitting from it but I have noticed a huge push by the Hudson PD to clean up the adjacent areas that are not exactly involved in the revitalization.
I have not seen a mass exodus of locals taking the downstate money and fleeing. Seems like this area a lot of the residents are looooong time residents and there's still plenty of room to coexist. I think Columbia County's population has gone down slightly in the past decade? What I do see is a lot of the kids from the transplants like us are not looking to stay here. The kinds of jobs that will keep young people do not exist in the county. My oldest went to college downstate and got a job and apartment back in NYC.
Last thought. As far as jobs that are not in retail that you people mentioned. I remember 2 companies that come to mind in Columbia County that were typical for NY. One place built outdoor furniture if I recall and the other was a fish farm. Both places received tax credits from the NY State to build and operate virtually tax free for 10 years. As soon as the credit and subsidy expired so did the companies. Both packed up and moved out.
I was thinking about what the Hudson Valley can do economically to make things work, especially given the pretty straight shot to NYC for much of it, and my thoughts are:
NYC made a go of manufacturing, especially with digital fabrication spaces and it's been tough because the real estate and sheer requirements for space is so limited due to the cost. However, there are a giant number of small product and hardware startups and small services which rely on this. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of that is reliant on sourcing from areas that are further out in other states or in China which has a fairly long turnaround and/or expensive shipping costs for things like small to medium size batches for testing. In that sense, it makes sense for the Hudson Valley to capitalize on this.
I know of shops that have done PCBs with pick and place machines, though the quality wasn't the greatest, and scene shops for events which do a bit better job. I think in order for this to work better, same day or next day delivery would greatly help things. One thing that's always struck me as odd is how there's no passenger rail connection going straight into NYC on the west side of the Hudson River. That seems like something that should be fixable, but the Tappan Zee bridge replacement somehow hasn't slated for that which I think is an error of sorts especially as there are currently rail and right-of-ways along there and the Long Island Railroad's new additional terminal in Grand Central means freeing up space at Penn Station such that more Metro-North trains can run (and that additional capacity is fantastic for the expansion of a new Metro-North line that runs along the west side of the Hudson). It should be very well worth the cost of doing so as an economic driver for the counties along the west side of the Hudson River--even the very basics of having either party from downstate or upstate to quickly and efficiently meet and tour spaces via the rail lines for a workday can be very valuable including the combination of meeting and couriering of prototypes and samples. Enough of the smaller, later in the life cycle kind of fabrication and manufacturing work (they'd still have to ship in many parts from elsewhere, but at least there's space up there to stockpile certain parts if necessary which itself is good business) may eventually result in the industry in the Hudson Valley to be able to move further up in the life cycle of production.
Another thing is that the mobile and hardline network infrastructure needs to be greatly improved. It's insane that network infrastructure to overseas manufacturers from NYC is often faster and more stable.
I think there needs to be a good hard look at greenhouse growing upstate. It's a large and profitable market downstate for produce (especially with the premium that comes from being local in both the label and the ability to grow varietals that don't generally ship long distance well) and there's a lot that becomes possible once frost isn't as much of a lingering threat. The advances in greenhouse growth have been really steady as can seen by the produce grown in less than ideal central and northern Europe and northern and highland Japan. As a fact, recall that the Netherlands, a country much higher in latitude than anywhere in New York state and hit with cloudy days quite often, is a major agricultural producer that marks 80% of its vegetables, fruit, plants, and flowers for export. New York state certainly gets much colder, but efficient contextual greenhouse design would greatly mitigate that.
Also, maple. Upsell that tree blood which is something for the whole state (along with the aforementioned greenhouse agriculture).
I know this isn't really all of upstate with just the Hudson Valley, but a New York state that has multiple regions doing well and directly benefitting from a large current region that is doing well (NYC and its close suburbs) means more breathing space to help take on projects to economically improve other parts of the state in the future. This isn't to say current efforts in other parts of the state shouldn't be done in tandem, but just that there seems to be some lower hanging fruit that can be done to buffer for the larger work ahead of making the entire state prosperous.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-25-2017 at 08:03 PM..
The locals have to deal with 2 types of 'outsiders'. People like my family that they fear want to develop everything and make it look like where we came from. Then there are the weekend getaway folks that actually didn't want any development because it spoils the rustic charm. We ended up with some development but it was done on a pretty small scale and on the town's terms as far as aesthetics. Now we have a supermarket and pharmacy and they do provide jobs to locals and HS kids even if they're in retail. Still have the farmer's markets and orchards.
Another thing you see is the development of a place like Warren St in Hudson full of galleries and restaurants. I'm not sure how many people are being pushed out by this or benefitting from it but I have noticed a huge push by the Hudson PD to clean up the adjacent areas that are not exactly involved in the revitalization.
I have not seen a mass exodus of locals taking the downstate money and fleeing. Seems like this area a lot of the residents are looooong time residents and there's still plenty of room to coexist. I think Columbia County's population has gone down slightly in the past decade? What I do see is a lot of the kids from the transplants like us are not looking to stay here. The kinds of jobs that will keep young people do not exist in the county. My oldest went to college downstate and got a job and apartment back in NYC.
.
I also left the mid Hudson because the employment options for me as a 20 something were pretty dismal. The schools in Dutchess County have fed a serious amount of talent that currently resides in NYC, Philly, DC, and Raleigh.
I think there's some missed opportunity in the creative sector, but I am just not sure what else it will take to make the area thrive for more people. Actually, scratch that, it would take a relocation of a game changing employer. IBM made the mid Hudson what it was 40 years ago. Doubtful something of that level is ever going to happen again.
You can ask any of my age cohort of early to mid 30s -- we all love going back to visit, take the kids to a few farms and hit a festival or brewery but beyond that it's back to corporate East Coast lifestyles and jobs.
There is deep seated generational poverty in play too, and I am not sure that can ever be solved for, because historically the trades have been the solution for that demographic in that area, and these days, that requires travel to more affluent areas.
I was thinking about what the Hudson Valley can do economically to make things work, especially given the pretty straight shot to NYC for much of it, and my thoughts are:
NYC made a go of manufacturing, especially with digital fabrication spaces and it's been tough because the real estate and sheer requirements for space is so limited due to the cost. However, there are a giant number of small product and hardware startups and small services which rely on this. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of that is reliant on sourcing from areas that are further out in other states or in China which has a fairly long turnaround and/or expensive shipping costs for things like small to medium size batches for testing. In that sense, it makes sense for the Hudson Valley to capitalize on this.
I know of shops that have done PCBs with pick and place machines, though the quality wasn't the greatest, and scene shops for events which do a bit better job. I think in order for this to work better, same day or next day delivery would greatly help things. One thing that's always struck me as odd is how there's no passenger rail connection going straight into NYC on the west side of the Hudson River. That seems like something that should be fixable, but the Tappan Zee bridge replacement somehow hasn't slated for that which I think is an error of sorts especially as there are currently rail and right-of-ways along there and the Long Island Railroad's new additional terminal in Grand Central means freeing up space at Penn Station such that more Metro-North trains can run (and that additional capacity is fantastic for the expansion of a new Metro-North line that runs along the west side of the Hudson). It should be very well worth the cost of doing so as an economic driver for the counties along the west side of the Hudson River--even the very basics of having either party from downstate or upstate to quickly and efficiently meet and tour spaces via the rail lines for a workday can be very valuable including the combination of meeting and couriering of prototypes and samples. Enough of the smaller, later in the life cycle kind of fabrication and manufacturing work (they'd still have to ship in many parts from elsewhere, but at least there's space up there to stockpile certain parts if necessary which itself is good business) may eventually result in the industry in the Hudson Valley to be able to move further up in the life cycle of production.
Another thing is that the mobile and hardline network infrastructure needs to be greatly improved. It's insane that network infrastructure to overseas manufacturers from NYC is often faster and more stable.
I think there needs to be a good hard look at greenhouse growing upstate. It's a large and profitable market downstate for produce (especially with the premium that comes from being local in both the label and the ability to grow varietals that don't generally ship long distance well) and there's a lot that becomes possible once frost isn't as much of a lingering threat. The advances in greenhouse growth have been really steady as can seen by the produce grown in less than ideal central and northern Europe and northern and highland Japan. As a fact, recall that the Netherlands, a country much higher in latitude than anywhere in New York state and hit with cloudy days quite often, is a major agricultural producer that marks 80% of its vegetables, fruit, plants, and flowers for export. New York state certainly gets much colder, but efficient contextual greenhouse design would greatly mitigate that.
Also, maple. Upsell that tree blood which is something for the whole state (along with the aforementioned greenhouse agriculture).
I know this isn't really all of upstate with just the Hudson Valley, but a New York state that has multiple regions doing well and directly benefitting from a large current region that is doing well (NYC and its close suburbs) means more breathing space to help take on projects to economically improve other parts of the state in the future. This isn't to say current efforts in other parts of the state shouldn't be done in tandem, but just that there seems to be some lower hanging fruit that can be done to buffer for the larger work ahead of making the entire state prosperous.
There are some ideas in here and I also think that the water supply that is available in Upstate NY should be used as a marketing tool for beverage companies. That would be similar to why Chobani choose to operate in Chenango County due to the pretty strong dairy sector in Upstate NY. There is actually a candidate for the mayor Syracuse that stated that he is thinking about trying to get Coca-Cola to come back to the area by marketing the water that is in the area to the company. It may or may not work, but I think leadership should think along those same or similar lines in order to attract select companies to parts of the state.
There are some ideas in here and I also think that the water supply that is available in Upstate NY should be used as a marketing tool for beverage companies. That would be similar to why Chobani choose to operate in Chenango County due to the pretty strong dairy sector in Upstate NY. There is actually a candidate for the mayor Syracuse that stated that he is thinking about trying to get Coca-Cola to come back to the area by marketing the water that is in the area to the company. It may or may not work, but I think leadership should think along those same or similar lines in order to attract select companies to parts of the state.
Well, if they do that, I'd think that getting PepsiCo to do so might make more sense since they are based in Westchester. Even as an experimental bottling plant it's probably more valuable as it'd be a fairy short distance to the headquarters and possibly ideal for being able to do quick turnarounds on new ideas.
Well, if they do that, I'd think that getting PepsiCo to do so might make more sense since they are based in Westchester. Even as an experimental bottling plant it's probably more valuable as it'd be a fairy short distance to the headquarters and possibly ideal for being able to do quick turnarounds on new ideas.
Yes, that would sound like a better idea and I'm actually surprised that no one else has thought of this idea.
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The problem with a bottling plant upstate as for many industries is not the resources or the people but the cost to ship your goods. New York's excessive gas taxes combined with the roadway tolls makes manufacturing elsewhere far more cost efficient.
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