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Old 10-18-2020, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Hudson Valley of New York
816 posts, read 1,025,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
Regarding regions, in many instances, "Hudson Valley" includes areas north of Westchester and Rockland, but not Westchester and Rockland themselves. Not in all instances, clearly, but the Hudson Valley region is many times linked to the Poughkeepsie/Newburgh area (and the vast areas around them) at the exclusion of the two counties next to the city. This is part of the reason why defining regions is difficult, and in different contexts, different terms mean different things.

Of the top of my head, I would guess that in areas of governance, Hudson Valley includes Westchester and Rockland. But in commercial or business areas, it is often defined to exclude these two southern counties.

And then you have interstate regions - Rockland has many ties to Bergen County and NJ in general. Similar to Westchester and CT.
It can be confusing...Sometimes Sullivan County is mixed in with the Hudson Valley (it's the Catskills). Same with Ulster County always called the Hudson Valley, but it's also the Catskills too. Eastern Ulster (Hudson Valley) as you work west of the thruway the county is more in the Catskills.

Usually it's

Putnam/Rockland/Westchester - lower hudson valley
Orange/Ulster/Dutchess mid hudson valley
Greene and Columbia - upper hudson valley or even capital district.
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Hudson Valley of New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Politics

Its not quite as lop sided as you think. At least 4 Downstate counties were won by Trump, including Suffolk (Long Island), Orange and Putnam (Hudson Valley) and Richmond/Staten Island (New York City). And Rockland (Hudson Valley) and Nassau (Long Island) voted for Clinton but only by 5 or 6% difference more than Trump.

Geography

I can actually see the Catskills as being a good dividing line for these days. But keep in mind, much of what you consider to be Downstate (like the Lower Hudson Valley) was considered Upstate at one time. I agree with what other people said, we should not automatically think of rural = Upstate and developed = Downstate. For instance, some of the best farmland in New York is Downstate in Suffolk and Orange.


Putnam and Staten Island have always been strong Republican holds never changing or swinging back and forth.

Orange County is interesting. It used to always be a strong Republican hold from its rural roots. The mid 90s is when change slowly started as NYC people move north. The county today has more registered Democrats than Republicans for the first time ever. The local level in certain towns are trending more Democrat, but the county legislature itself is still strong Republican.

Even though Trump won the county in 2016.....In 2008 and 2012 Obama won the county easily. There was a massive swing in 2016 towards Trump and away from Hillary(actually a lot of NY counties didn't like her compared to Obama). It'll be interesting to see if the county swings back to Democrat with Biden or stays with Trump in a few weeks.
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Old 10-18-2020, 01:56 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeHudson View Post
Putnam and Staten Island have always been strong Republican holds never changing or swinging back and forth.

Orange County is interesting. It used to always be a strong Republican hold from its rural roots. The mid 90s is when change slowly started as NYC people move north. The county today has more registered Democrats than Republicans for the first time ever. The local level in certain towns are trending more Democrat, but the county legislature itself is still strong Republican.

Even though Trump won the county in 2016.....In 2008 and 2012 Obama won the county easily. There was a massive swing in 2016 towards Trump and away from Hillary(actually a lot of NY counties didn't like her compared to Obama). It'll be interesting to see if the county swings back to Democrat with Biden or stays with Trump in a few weeks.
Putnam will remain Republican well after the rest of the Hudson Valley's other holdouts.

Really the only part of Putnam that even barely leans left is Philipstown (Cold Spring, Garrison, Nelsonville) and that is mainly due to some hard left residents balancing out their more mild and conventional Republican neighbors who are not necessarily dyed in the wool Trump fans, but still generational Republicans who will overlook a lot to remain in their comfortable camp.

But county wide, Philipstown is a very small part of the picture with less than 10% of the total population. The bulk of residents are in the Towns of Carmel and Southeast (combined making up 60% of the county's population) which are a mix of very blue collar, classic Trump fodder, with some significant pockets of ultra-wealthy classic Republicans who will vote for lower taxes or death, regardless of the accompanying message of their favored Republican candidate.

To illustrate the dynamic, The Putnam sherrif's department was going to have a "Thin Blue Line" parade in Cold Spring last week, but cancelled in favor of holding a Trump re-election rally in Carmel instead. They know where their bread is buttered. But even at that, I don't expect Philipstown to become a solidly Democrat bastion any time soon.
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Old 10-18-2020, 07:43 PM
 
76 posts, read 21,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeHudson View Post
Putnam and Staten Island have always been strong Republican holds never changing or swinging back and forth.

Orange County is interesting. It used to always be a strong Republican hold from its rural roots. The mid 90s is when change slowly started as NYC people move north. The county today has more registered Democrats than Republicans for the first time ever. The local level in certain towns are trending more Democrat, but the county legislature itself is still strong Republican.

Even though Trump won the county in 2016.....In 2008 and 2012 Obama won the county easily. There was a massive swing in 2016 towards Trump and away from Hillary(actually a lot of NY counties didn't like her compared to Obama). It'll be interesting to see if the county swings back to Democrat with Biden or stays with Trump in a few weeks.
Then let's cut off Long Island and New York City that isn't Staten Island so we can get Trump to be who wins our electoral votes because under your logic Trump wins in Staten Island, and other parts of downstate.

We have enough people in upstate NY who are supporters of America and will vote for Trump (even if they won't admit it).
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Hudson Valley of New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Putnam will remain Republican well after the rest of the Hudson Valley's other holdouts.

Really the only part of Putnam that even barely leans left is Philipstown (Cold Spring, Garrison, Nelsonville) and that is mainly due to some hard left residents balancing out their more mild and conventional Republican neighbors who are not necessarily dyed in the wool Trump fans, but still generational Republicans who will overlook a lot to remain in their comfortable camp.

But county wide, Philipstown is a very small part of the picture with less than 10% of the total population. The bulk of residents are in the Towns of Carmel and Southeast (combined making up 60% of the county's population) which are a mix of very blue collar, classic Trump fodder, with some significant pockets of ultra-wealthy classic Republicans who will vote for lower taxes or death, regardless of the accompanying message of their favored Republican candidate.

To illustrate the dynamic, The Putnam sherrif's department was going to have a "Thin Blue Line" parade in Cold Spring last week, but cancelled in favor of holding a Trump re-election rally in Carmel instead. They know where their bread is buttered. But even at that, I don't expect Philipstown to become a solidly Democrat bastion any time soon.
Good analysis. If you look at the Hudson Valley politically - just about every town near the Hudson River leans more Democrat than Republican. (Putnam is a great example with Phillipstown). Dutchess too west of the Taconic State Parkway (much more unban/suburban more Democrat while east of the Taconic State Parkway more Republican (much more rural).

Another interesting dynamic is the upper hudson valley/capital district where Columbia County is almost all Democrat but just over the bridge on the western side Greene County is almost always Republican.

I always consider Rockland and most of Westchester (minus the northeastern part of the county) to be similar politically and culturally. Then Putnam and Northeastern Westchester (Pound Ridge, Lewisboro, North Salmon, Somers).

Orange/Dutchess/Ulster then very similarly culturally and politically. Ulster is the most Democrat (likely cause of SUNY New Paltz) then Dutchess then Orange.

If you asked people 30 years ago they would say Orange and Dutchess for sure *upstate NY*, but things have changed a lot with NYC people moving north and turning a lot of the quiet rural areas into suburban. Also now with social media tons and tons of people from NYC and Long Island come to the Hudson Valley for hiking, apple picking, day trips etc. There is a lot of influence from NYC into the Hudson Valley today.

Last edited by OrangeHudson; 10-18-2020 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 10-19-2020, 11:56 AM
 
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Pre 9/11, the Dutchess/Columbia line, and the Ulster/Greene line, were essentially the dividing lines between downstate and upstate. Anyone who's spent substantial time in and around Kingston and Hudson in the last 20 years can attest to the shift in dynamics in those areas.

This is why there are "local holdouts" - it hasn't been that long since the exurban revival began.

A lot of upstate touchpoints are culturally relevant in those areas - from TV to retail and beyond. There are probably a dozen Stewart's in northern Dutchess. It used to be that you'd go to Colonie Center to see Christmas decorations - not 34th street. That area knew of Rachael Ray from channel 6 well before she was famous on the national stage. You went to SPAC or the Palace for your first concert - certainly not to MSG or Jones Beach.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:35 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
17,229 posts, read 19,945,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErieCanalLvR View Post
Then let's cut off Long Island and New York City that isn't Staten Island so we can get Trump to be who wins our electoral votes because under your logic Trump wins in Staten Island, and other parts of downstate.

We have enough people in upstate NY who are supporters of America and will vote for Trump (even if they won't admit it).
The GOP already has the imbalance advantage of the electoral college, now you have to gerrymander entire states?

Can't Republicans win with actual votes or is democracy really just a radical leftist plot?
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:45 PM
 
708 posts, read 713,836 times
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Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Curious, but I never heard this before. In a state that is divided into regions - who says that Westchester and Rockland are not part of the Hudson Valley? Where else could they be? They are not part of NYC. They are not part of Connecticut or New Jersey. So what else is there?
Its more on the marketing and cultural side. Westchester and Rockland are 100% locked in NYC suburbs. The counties to the north - it starts to become more of its own region, separate from NYC. There are some radio stations that broadcast in the northern counties of the HV, and businesses that regionalize for the areas north of Westchester and Rockland. The term "Hudson Valley" is a term of art for them. Its used less in Westchester and Rockland for sure. People from Westchester and Rockland will also much less identify as residents of the Hudson Valley - and instead identify simply as New Yorkers (in the city sense).

Basically, Westchester and Rockland are a subset of the Hudson Valley, and in certain instances, the remaining area adopts the label "Hudson Valley" to describe themselves.

It is kind of like when the term "the city" is used to mean just Manhattan. Yes, Queens is part of the city, but in certain contexts that term describes only Manhattan.

Keep in mind none of this is universally true for all people in all circumstances.
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Hudson Valley of New York
816 posts, read 1,025,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
Its more on the marketing and cultural side. Westchester and Rockland are 100% locked in NYC suburbs. The counties to the north - it starts to become more of its own region, separate from NYC. There are some radio stations that broadcast in the northern counties of the HV, and businesses that regionalize for the areas north of Westchester and Rockland. The term "Hudson Valley" is a term of art for them. Its used less in Westchester and Rockland for sure. People from Westchester and Rockland will also much less identify as residents of the Hudson Valley - and instead identify simply as New Yorkers (in the city sense).

Basically, Westchester and Rockland are a subset of the Hudson Valley, and in certain instances, the remaining area adopts the label "Hudson Valley" to describe themselves.

It is kind of like when the term "the city" is used to mean just Manhattan. Yes, Queens is part of the city, but in certain contexts that term describes only Manhattan.

Keep in mind none of this is universally true for all people in all circumstances.

Especially south of the TZB they don't consider themselves "Hudson Valley" at all.

We people hear Hudson Valley they think of Orange/Putnam/Dutchess/Ulster counties

Sullivan is Catskills. Greene and Columbia capital district. Rockland and Westchester suburbia NYC.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:51 AM
 
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It is interesting the change in how the perception of Dutchess County is now considered downstate. When my folks relocated to Dutchess County in 1951, it was considered Upstate. There were about 150K living in the county then. At the time, there were over 55+ farms within the county. Rt.9 wasn’t a large overgrown parking lot. Even myself growing up, I can remember a couple of times horses got loose at night and walked their merry way through the village of Fishkill without one single car hitting one. Fast forward to 1991. IBM tanks, lays off 11,000. Lots of inexpensive homes on the market, led to a big influx from Westchester, LI and NYC. That’s when more and more were starting to refer to the area as Downstate. Add 9/11 and another stream of folks from the lower counties. Since the 1950’s the population has almost doubled. A big loss of farms sold out for the McMansion cookie cutters that are habitually going up now for foreclosure. Now with the COVID-19, my friends who are realtors back home are being slammed with buyers from again the lower counties. So the perception has completely changed in the last 35+ years of it now being part of downstate and it can largely be accounted to those who moved north. Ask a local who was born there who is over the age of 65+ and you’ll probable get the answer of it being Upstate.
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