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The problem is that people somehow want to equate "upstate" with rural-ness in terms of arriving at a definition. I never understood this. For instance, much of eastern LI is rural, or ex-urban, or slightly-suburban, or whatever. Such doesn't lead to it being in a different geographical category. And much of "upstate" is urban - Buffalo, Rochester, Albany/Troy, Binghamton, etc. There are areas in Bergen County just a few minutes from Manhattan that are closer to the rural side of the scale than the urban one.
As stated above, and in my post earlier on this thread, the word "upstate" has many different meanings depending on context. It is used as a word to describe "that portion of the NYC metropolitan area which is in NY State but north of NYC". It is also used as a word to describe "that portion of NY State which is outside the NYC metropolitan area". These are two very different things. And as the poster above noted, it is also a word that is used to describe directional movement.
You are comparing the state of New Jersey to some popular residential areas in the state of New York. They are not the same so please stop doing this to justify a logic of going "upstate" or "downstate." Does New Jersey have a land formation which political and economically divides the state? In New York state we have the Catskills, one side gets LOVE and has fees to purchase products are higher than compared the other side. Has anybody been to Greene County? I would love to see how much you pay for a candy bar in Greene County compared to Monroe County or a bordering county as if it's more then Greene County would be downstate!
Have you seen how NYC and Long Island votes, out of all the people I know down there, not says they will vote to support our president. Up here there's lots of Trump signs, people will come out to support AMERICA not communism (although there are plenty of exceptions).
Does New Jersey have one part of the state that will support President Trump, and another part that will completely come out in droves to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
To be honest, WNY is just a sub region of Upstate(whatever that is). Even what constitutes WNY will vary based on the source or who you ask. Same goes for other sub regions like the Finger Lakes, CNY, the Southern Tier, etc.
Western NY is usually anything in the Genesee Valley and west of the Genesee River. Southern Tier is a generic term to refer to all the miscellaneous counties that border Pennsylvania west of the Susquehanna River; it is not an actual region. Finger Lakes/Central NY would be the areas East of the Genesee Valley but southwest of the Adriondacks and Albany areas.
1. Ulster and Sullivan Counties I believe are in the NYC local station market too, so they would technically be downstate,
2. The point of this is where are Upstate is primarily rural, due in large part to its geographical size, it has places that are urban. Buffalo even has a pro sports team.
1. Yes Ulster and Sullivan counties are downstate, but also because of geographic and economic support factors in comparison to other parts of New York state.
2. Upstate is known for it's waterways and mostly rural with the exception of the Erie and Monroe counties which are extremely urban and suburban. Yes Buffalo has a pro sports team and I should know, it's in my username!
1. Has anybody been to Greene County? I would love to see how much you pay for a candy bar in Greene County compared to Monroe County or a bordering county as if it's more then Greene County would be downstate!
2. Have you seen how NYC and Long Island votes, out of all the people I know down there, not says they will vote to support our president. Up here there's lots of Trump signs, people will come out to support AMERICA not communism (although there are plenty of exceptions).
3. Does New Jersey have one part of the state that will support President Trump, and another part that will completely come out in droves to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is?
4. Western NY is usually anything in the Genesee Valley and west of the Genesee River. Southern Tier is a generic term to refer to all the miscellaneous counties that border Pennsylvania west of the Susquehanna River; it is not an actual region. Finger Lakes/Central NY would be the areas East of the Genesee Valley but southwest of the Adriondacks and Albany areas.
1. This is an interesting question. I haven't been to Greene County (shocking!) but I do know when I've been to Westchester and other counties they advertise Greene County as being part of their Hudson Valley region and features the same high economic support to the degree that areas south get from the-powers-that-be. But on the opposite side, their county government offices have a 518 area code, which is the area code for the Adirondacks. I'm 100% sure Adriondacks would be considered upstate, so are Adirondack counties and Green County featuring the same area code a coincidence and Greene County is downstate, or is Greene County upstate because it has an area code associated with upstate?
2. I have been to NYC and I know that most people there and on Long Island tend to either have the "anyone but the Republican" attitude, or "vote for the Democrat nominee or else no juice for you" mindset. This has unfortunately discouraged many people upstate from voting in state-wide elections (even year elections) and leaves us with emperor Cuomo and our electoral votes going for whomever the Democratic nominee is. I will say plenty of people upstate though are not fans of Trump and won't vote for him unfortunately so there is that exception to the "upstate likes Trump" rule. Also areas closer to Buffalo tend to be left-leaning and pro-socialism where we find support for jobs and the constitution closer to Syracuse in terms of Rochester.
3. I don't think New Jersey has a political/economic divide. I would love to see what the person you were responding to says about that. My opinion is they vote for whomever they think is the most insane person. After all they had Chris Christie as governor who thought it was okay to call a state-of-emergency along the Atlantic coastline just so his son could go skinny dipping.
4. That's true to some extent, some people consider Rochester as part of the Finger Lakes and not the Genesee Valley although Genesee Valley park and trail system starts in the city of Rochester and part of it is owned by the city of Rochester rather than the state. So why would Rochester and some areas south be Finger Lakes? maybe because of Honeoye Lake and the connection of Honeoye Falls-Lima to that lake?
I would say your argument about the Southern Tier is 100% correct there is no state region marked as "Southern Tier" by the parks and preservation department. Also, People in Ithaca and Elmira consider themselves southern Finger Lakes NOT southern tier because the Southern Tier is exactly how you say it is. Not an official region.
1. This is an interesting question. I haven't been to Greene County (shocking!) but I do know when I've been to Westchester and other counties they advertise Greene County as being part of their Hudson Valley region and features the same high economic support to the degree that areas south get from the-powers-that-be. But on the opposite side, their county government offices have a 518 area code, which is the area code for the Adirondacks. I'm 100% sure Adriondacks would be considered upstate, so are Adirondack counties and Green County featuring the same area code a coincidence and Greene County is downstate, or is Greene County upstate because it has an area code associated with upstate?
2. I have been to NYC and I know that most people there and on Long Island tend to either have the "anyone but the Republican" attitude, or "vote for the Democrat nominee or else no juice for you" mindset. This has unfortunately discouraged many people upstate from voting in state-wide elections (even year elections) and leaves us with emperor Cuomo and our electoral votes going for whomever the Democratic nominee is. I will say plenty of people upstate though are not fans of Trump and won't vote for him unfortunately so there is that exception to the "upstate likes Trump" rule. Also areas closer to Buffalo tend to be left-leaning and pro-socialism where we find support for jobs and the constitution closer to Syracuse in terms of Rochester.
3. I don't think New Jersey has a political/economic divide. I would love to see what the person you were responding to says about that. My opinion is they vote for whomever they think is the most insane person. After all they had Chris Christie as governor who thought it was okay to call a state-of-emergency along the Atlantic coastline just so his son could go skinny dipping.
4. That's true to some extent, some people consider Rochester as part of the Finger Lakes and not the Genesee Valley although Genesee Valley park and trail system starts in the city of Rochester and part of it is owned by the city of Rochester rather than the state. So why would Rochester and some areas south be Finger Lakes? maybe because of Honeoye Lake and the connection of Honeoye Falls-Lima to that lake?
I would say your argument about the Southern Tier is 100% correct there is no state region marked as "Southern Tier" by the parks and preservation department. Also, People in Ithaca and Elmira consider themselves southern Finger Lakes NOT southern tier because the Southern Tier is exactly how you say it is. Not an official region.
In response to your 1.:
Area code means nothing, that's just the FCC providing a number in that region to be 518 to phone providers. In today's day and age the Area code boundaries have changed depending on what phone provider you get. I live in the Finger Lakes, if you have AT&T you get a 585 number because their Webster franchise gets the numbers for the area and Webster is 585. But someone with Verizon gets a 315 number because Verizon bases themselves with Camillus, a suburb as Syracuse which are both 315. On top of that people with T-Mobil have 585 numbers or 607 numbers.
The area code boundaries now appear to be based on one particular city/group of communities, and the phone providers have a number for you depending on what store(s) they are affiliated with when you sign up, not where you are actually located.
The only difference is in landlines, but there has been a new law from the FCC that anyone with a landline in the 315 will now have area code 680. I even used to have a co-worker who was unfamilar with the new 680 rule and got a call from a neighbor who had moved to a new home he was shocked the number was 680 not 315 despite being in the same school district! I know plenty of people who have ditched their landline so they can keep their 315 number and not go to having a 680 number, and I know people when they switch phone providers keep their 315 number because they don't live close to Rochester or the Genesee River and want to have the same number because it is one their friends and family are familiar with.
Also, in areas like Elmira, Ithaca and Binghampton. ALL landline phones have a 607 area code, this has actually been the custom before the other part of 315land became 680 for residential landlines. I think however the other numbers are just to differentiate what type of phone the number originated with.
In response to your 4.:
I have heard people in Elmira say "come visit Mark Twain State Park" and if you do enough digging there is information about how he has "ties to the finger lakes" and the reason why he is affiliated with Elmira area itself so definitely Finger Lakes there. It surprised me to read that someone here thinks areas southeast of Syracuse closer to Utica than Ithaca are "southern tier" as that is simply not true. I am not going to respond to that person as that person should know those areas are mountainous and dozens of miles away from the Pennsylvania border!
You are comparing the state of New Jersey to some popular residential areas in the state of New York. They are not the same so please stop doing this to justify a logic of going "upstate" or "downstate." Does New Jersey have a land formation which political and economically divides the state? In New York state we have the Catskills, one side gets LOVE and has fees to purchase products are higher than compared the other side. Has anybody been to Greene County? I would love to see how much you pay for a candy bar in Greene County compared to Monroe County or a bordering county as if it's more then Greene County would be downstate! Have you seen how NYC and Long Island votes, out of all the people I know down there, not says they will vote to support our president. Up here there's lots of Trump signs, people will come out to support AMERICA not communism (although there are plenty of exceptions).
Does New Jersey have one part of the state that will support President Trump, and another part that will completely come out in droves to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is?
Politics
Its not quite as lop sided as you think. At least 4 Downstate counties were won by Trump, including Suffolk (Long Island), Orange and Putnam (Hudson Valley) and Richmond/Staten Island (New York City). And Rockland (Hudson Valley) and Nassau (Long Island) voted for Clinton but only by 5 or 6% difference more than Trump.
Geography
I can actually see the Catskills as being a good dividing line for these days. But keep in mind, much of what you consider to be Downstate (like the Lower Hudson Valley) was considered Upstate at one time. I agree with what other people said, we should not automatically think of rural = Upstate and developed = Downstate. For instance, some of the best farmland in New York is Downstate in Suffolk and Orange.
The Southern Tier is absolutely a real region and not just a miscellaneous jumble of misfit counties.
It is discretely defined as one of NYS's economic regions and by the NYS Dept. of Govt. Services, and more loosely defined as a culturalregion with its own history and identity, often linked to Pennsylvania's Norther Tier (the Twin Tiers).
It is no less a real region than the Hudson Valley (Upper and Lower), the North Country, Mohawk Valley, Finger Lakes, Capitol District, etc.
You are comparing the state of New Jersey to some popular residential areas in the state of New York. They are not the same so please stop doing this to justify a logic of going "upstate" or "downstate." Does New Jersey have a land formation which political and economically divides the state? In New York state we have the Catskills, one side gets LOVE and has fees to purchase products are higher than compared the other side. Has anybody been to Greene County? I would love to see how much you pay for a candy bar in Greene County compared to Monroe County or a bordering county as if it's more then Greene County would be downstate!
Have you seen how NYC and Long Island votes, out of all the people I know down there, not says they will vote to support our president. Up here there's lots of Trump signs, people will come out to support AMERICA not communism (although there are plenty of exceptions). Does New Jersey have one part of the state that will support President Trump, and another part that will completely come out in droves to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is?
Western NY is usually anything in the Genesee Valley and west of the Genesee River. Southern Tier is a generic term to refer to all the miscellaneous counties that border Pennsylvania west of the Susquehanna River; it is not an actual region. Finger Lakes/Central NY would be the areas East of the Genesee Valley but southwest of the Adriondacks and Albany areas.
The Southern Tier is absolutely a real region and not just a miscellaneous jumble of misfit counties.
It is discretely defined as one of NYS's economic regions and by the NYS Dept. of Govt. Services, and more loosely defined as a culturalregion with its own history and identity, often linked to Pennsylvania's Norther Tier (the Twin Tiers).
It is no less a real region than the Hudson Valley (Upper and Lower), the North Country, Mohawk Valley, Finger Lakes, Capitol District, etc.
Actually the OPRHP says that areas along the Pennsylvania border could be in any of a few regions https://parks.ny.gov/regions/
Not ONE of them is called "Southern Tier" also, Western NY is divided into 3 seperate regions but no one says Niagara, Genesee or Allegany they all say Western NY because it is a wide space that is spread out among Buffalo/Rochester and areas south in economic terms. Palisides and Taconic regions I would consider northern downstate. There was a question whether or not Green County was downstate, if they are NOT in either palisades or taconic then Greene County is upstate. I found a listing for Hudson River Islands State Park which is considered the Saratoga/Capital District region. That park I determined was located in Greene County and was the most southern listing for state parks so Greene County is upstate but anything south would be downstate, that debate is settled.
I'll stand by my post..anyone in the area I mentioned who has lived there a long time, knows the counties..and parts of a couple counties as the southern tier.
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