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Why this need to leave things better for the next generation? I just want to break this argument down logically for once. Why does it matter to say to your offspring that our generation contributed postitively, and acted as stewards of the earth?
Mankind, in post-industrial Western civilization anyway, does not have any track record whatsoever of this sort of thinking. This is strictly an invention of the intelligensia from the developed nations, who have decided to endow human beings with responsibilites other cultures leave for their Creator.
It seems that as we moved away from our primordial past, and from an economy based on agiculture, we immediately created this nostalgia for a simpler life in which man felt connected to the earth, and where we instinctively knew that to survive, we had to treat nature with respect.
I have a theory that human beings were traumatized by the Industrial Revolution, much more than we even realized. It affects us still today, even though we have segued into a high tech world. At any rate, the need to be the earth's caretakers for the next generation is really just the natural process of things, and not a conscious decision. It is borne from our instinctive need to propagate the species, and make sure our children are able to survive. Animals do the same thing.
But I do think the time will eventually come when we will be forced to confront the issue of how to use and conserve our resources, because it will mean our very survival. Only then, will we consider sweeping changes, and perhaps that is how it should be.
There's a lot of money to made in alternative energy. Don't think the owners of the wind turbine companies are doing all of this because they want to save the planet! It's like the whole global warming thing, and all of the money that's being poured into research and development of alternatives. Of course companies want to jump on the bandwagon! And be skeptical of scientists most of all. Scientists are whores - they will say whatever you want them to, as long as you're waving a hefty research grant under their noses.
Why shouldnt we leave our world better than we came in...
We have this noation that we are the caretakers of this world. There are somethat say we are putting ourselves in that position... but then again, who else is going to be responsible for this world? Things change and who are we to say that this isnt part of the natural process of evolution....
Why were we even born with that itch in our minds to go and expore, to seek and better ourselves???
We have messed up, and at times messed up big. There are people that just want to use and throw away. Wind is renewable. Clean and provided by the greatest source of energy in the solar system... the sun. Id like to beleive that one day, fusion will be viable but i feel that its time won't be in our life time. Wiond is here and while yes, it requires fossil fuel to erect, jsut how much fossil fuel does it take to erect a coal plant or nuclear reactor? Its a one time trade off for 25-30 years of clean energy. Wind has come a long way since its humble beginnings.
But that doesnt mean we should blanket our country in wind turbines. Solar power, geo thermal energy, bio fuels, yes, when its ready, even fusion, all are in the works and constantl being bettered and scurtunized. Wind is here and is affordable. And that is the truth. More affordable in some areas than even coal power.
Thank you ORRIN0, I couldn't have said it better myself. (Especially because my last post was how I felt like a broken record!)
I agree, why shouldn't we care about making the world better for the next generations?? Isn’t that the point? I know my grandfather came to America to make a better life for himself and his children, I know my parents went out and worked and got a nice house for myself and my siblings, the least I can do is try and do my part to save the environment for my children. My generation is the first generations were we are not guaranteed to do better as our parents, in fact, with the rising rates of everything and decline of jobs, we'll be lucky to even do as well as our parents, and that’s with going to college! The world is changing and a lot of it is not for the better.
I'm sorry, but I care deeply for my family and friends, and though I don't have children yet, but I do have a godchild, younger siblings, and may little cousins, and it would kill me to know that they are doomed to live in a world full of pollution and I did nothing at all to at least slow it down.
I may be missing your point Looking, or maybe you missed mine, but I know personally I'd rather worry about human and other species as a whole surviving than just me as an individual. I may be naive or young and overly optimistic but I think it is extremely selfish to only do something about the decline of our environment, natural resources, etc only after it starts affecting us as individuals. I'm not saying that most of the world isn't corrupt but I think it is kind of harsh to lump all people into one category of being selfish and only caring about themselves and money. I think we at least have to try....
I've found this to be a very interesting thread for the most part with people posting valuable information sources and insight. It's certainly led me to reconsider support for the wind-farm proposals in Delaware County and focus more on my plans for a possible small-scale 'turbine/windmill' as a power source on my own propery. I need to collect more data on our usage/needs and the wind densities at various locations on the land to determine if it's really feasible. But the large-scale, commercial ventures..... I guess the suspicions I had buried in the back of my mind are now at the front. They're in the business of making money and it seems like right now they're more about selling the 'feel-good' idea of wind power than actually delivering a viable amount of power. Doesn't mean that it all can't change...
But it does bring me back to the notion that most of the real changes can and must happen from the bottom up with all of this. If you look at the problem from the top, you tend to see solutions from the top- big, overarching plans necessitating enforced societal changes, radical reworkings of how we live and do business. From that perspective it's easy to be frustrated or cynical and fatalistic. There is a mountain that needs to be moved, how are we going to get everybody together to all push it and move it? "C'mon everybody, we've got to drop everything and push this mountain!" Yeah, right, that'll go over well. And the notion of hoping for ways to convince someone or some group that they'll make a killing moving the mountain doesn't seem to likely either. But if you believe that the mountain has to be moved for the sake of the survival of your children, your grand-children, etc. etc. you can't just do nothing. So you start picking up rocks and moving them. Every time you go past the mountain, you pick up a rock and move it. It's only a little bit, but after a while it becomes noticeable- people ask why, and you tell them and show them that it's pretty easy, just a bit here and a bit there. OK, I'm getting bored of my metaphor here, but I hope the idea is apparent. There really are many, many simple and easy things everyone can do individually- and the great added benefit is that almost always, doing good for the environment and the planet's health does good for the individual's health. Walk, ride a bike- great exercise, no pollution. Take public transportation and leave the mental stress of battling congested traffic to someone else, and lessen pollution. Buy local produce and get more flavor and nutrients rather than bland, depleted produce that has travelled 1500 miles to get to you. It goes on and on.
My parents live in Cumbria, England (the Lake District). There are a few wind farms dotted around, but nothing on a truly industrial scale.
A perfect site was found a few years ago, coincidentally at the point where a motorway (freeway) splits carriage ways due to the lie of the land.
All was looking rosy for a windfarm until the farmers in the area (THE biggest shysters ever, over here) developed NIMBY'ism and the idea was knocked on the head.
I'll say it again - it was down the middle of a fvckin motorway that they wanted to put these, farmers didn't use it, it's ultra rural to say the least, and they still objected to it.
That's it though, people object, object, object, but they don't give any alternative ideas.
I love the turbines, they have a sweet majesty about them, something very graceful and calming.
There is a wind farm not too far from where my daughter lives, it is accessible by a normal road (one lane each way) and a gravel track to the turbines, on the top of a hill. Looks great from the motorway too.
I live in Liverpool and there is a small windfarm on the coast, about 5 minutes from the city centre and it just fits no problem.
A recent tv show over here on the issue of renewable energy basically found a flaw in EVERY type. To close the programme, the presenter interview a highly esteemed Green Campaigner who conceded that the only source of renewable energy that could provide enough for future generations was NUCLEAR - to say that blew my head is an understatement.
Apologies for the disjointed nature of this rambling, sleep deprivation thanks to a sick kid is not good. Hopefully I got some sense out though
A recent tv show over here on the issue of renewable energy basically found a flaw in EVERY type. To close the programme, the presenter interview a highly esteemed Green Campaigner who conceded that the only source of renewable energy that could provide enough for future generations was NUCLEAR - to say that blew my head is an understatement.
Certainly it can be said that there is a flaw not just in every renewable energy source, but in every energy source, period! Acid rain, problematic CO2 emissions, nuclear accidents, etc... major flaws, those. Then there is this idea of 'enough'- the arguments against renewables because they cannot produce enough for future generations are all based on the calculation that future generations will *need* at least as much energy as we are currently using, if not more. Hmm, how about cutting down our demands as part of the solution, too? This never seems to get a lot of support because it implies a contraction, and in our late-stage capitalist system contraction=death. Even stasis=death, as far as Wall Street is concerned. It's perpetual growth, expanding consumption, or nothing. There's no money to be made in encouraging people to use/consume less, so that side of the equation receives little attention.
Personally (as I rambled about in a previous post), I think the bulk of the change, if it's going to be meaningful and last, has to come from the bottom up, but here's some interesting top-down prescriptions:
And the turbines down the median of the highway is a really interesting idea- the land is already cleared and not particularly attractive to begin with, it likely wouldn't affect propery values (certainly wouldn't make things any worse than already being next to the highway!), access is easy.... What were the objections to that scheme in Cumbria based on, anyway?
You want to know who I admire-the amish-they are the true environmentalists and none of them get on a soap box preaching about how everybody else should live.............................................. ..
And the turbines down the median of the highway is a really interesting idea- the land is already cleared and not particularly attractive to begin with, it likely wouldn't affect propery values (certainly wouldn't make things any worse than already being next to the highway!), access is easy.... What were the objections to that scheme in Cumbria based on, anyway?
The median actually splits with the northbound carriageway going one size of a hill and dell while the southbound goes the other!!!
The objection was NIMBY!!! The actual arguement was that it took away from the beauty of the area, but (and I must stress that I love walking in the lake district having lived there for 20 odd years before coming home to Liverpool) that that particular area is *ahem* far from a natural beauty. In fact, it's so non-descript it could really be anywhere. It doesn't touch on the Lake District National Park, it was just between 2 carriageways - I really despair sometimes here.
I do believe, however, that steps are being taken, certainly over here, to try and cut back the useage of fossil fuels, hell, being charged £5 per GALLON (about $10) is a start, but it still doesn't really put the dent in that is required.
I could throttle the missus cos we have the heating on from October to April and it's very rare we get anything resembling a winter, maybe the odd cold morning (I have a North Fce McMurdo Parka (bloody warm coat) and wore it a max of 6 times last 'winter') so we have no need, really, for the house to be like a sauna. Energy saving lightbulbs, switching lights out when not in the room, only boiling water in a kettle for what you need are all a start and if EVERYONE (and lets be honest, it's not rocket science is it??) did this, it'd be a huge start.
As soon as the missus goes to bed I knock the xmas deccies off too - do my freakin head in!!!
You want to know who I admire-the amish-they are the true environmentalists and none of them get on a soap box preaching about how everybody else should live.............................................. ..
They will once climate change starts to have an impact on their way of life and survival...
And, the Amish are the largest group of puppy-millers and are down right cruel to "beasts" that they make money off the backs of-horses, cattle, etc.
I am far from an activist, but please do not admire the Amish becuase they don't drive cars, or use as much electricity as we do. PUKE. And Honey I agree with you.
Off the soapbox, lets keep this on turbines, please.
Well reading your responses I would bet that you two are part of the group of people who told us in the mid seventies we were heading for a Ice Age-chicken little comes to mind. Where is the evidence of climate change? Sorry guys it's propaganda at its best and the Amish I live near are not puppy millers or breaking animals backs.
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