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What option? You MUST buy electric isn't an option. Biden told us higher gas prices were intended to persuade people to go electric. So they are artificially high.
That isn't the case initially and Oy's posts have illustrated how this would be a gradual transition.
Gas prices have been high before Biden and that also served as a reason for some to move back into cities again though about 15 years ago. So, gas prices being high isn't exclusive to Biden's term.
That isn't the case initially and Oy's posts have illustrated how this would be a gradual transition.
Gas prices have been high before Biden and that also served as a reason for some to move back into cities again though about 15 years ago. So, gas prices being high isn't exclusive to Biden's term.
Yes, gas prices have been high before, but never as high as with Biden. This also goes to show how it is the government that causes our problems. Anyone that hasn't noticed the MAJOR price increase of gas taking place immediately after Biden took office and started to establish his policies.
People seem to be just too partisan nowadays and don't care for the truth, unless its "their truth".
This obsession with Trump has distracted the mental midgets away from what's really going on
Yes, gas prices have been high before, but never as high as with Biden. This also goes to show how it is the government that causes our problems. Anyone that hasn't noticed the MAJOR price increase of gas taking place immediately after Biden took office and started to establish his policies.
People seem to be just too partisan nowadays and don't care for the truth, unless its "their truth".
This obsession with Trump has distracted the mental midgets away from what's really going on
Even if they are higher now, that still illustrates how high gas prices can influence people's decisions, no matter who is in office when they occur.
I also think people have too much of an obsession on thinking if this one particular individual gets into office, all of the problems will go away or that said individuals are above reproach or don't make any mistakes.
EVs were 5.6% of US new vehicle market share in Q2 of this year. Q3 data should be out within the next couple of weeks. Sales in the US are uneven with ZEV states (basically west coast, Colorado, and northeastern states) having higher proportions. Note that's for straight BEV. Under this mandate, PHEVs and fuel cell vehicles and possibly more would also be allowable. That being said, PHEVs have generally not sold very well in the US and fuel cells even worse. Fuel cells are for various reasons a very hard sell and not a very reasonable choice, so I don't expect those to really make much of an impact on the light-duty vehicle market. What is important to note though is that every single market that has hit above 5% EV new vehicle market share thus far has then gone on to a S-curve of rapid adoption rates.
It is pretty simple math. For the last several decades, gravimetric energy density of mass produced secondary cells effectively double every 9 to 14 years. We're currently already at the point where premium segments have electric vehicles that are price competitive and in the same weight band as ICE competitors and generally destroy them when it comes to performance. Of course, battery cells aren't the only thing shedding weight in an EV--the motors are also doing so and one of the trade-offs of an EV powertrain is the far greater power density that electric motors have over internal combustion engines so what's gained in battery weight in comparison to its liquid fuel analogues is to some degree offset by motors being lighter than engines, not needing an exhaust system nor a complex transmission. What's more, batteries can be placed low and shifted around, so that battery weight is often placed so that the center of gravity is low and the front/rear weight distribution is even which are both generally great for handling.
You also obviously do not need secondary cells to have the energy density of gasoline because the powertrain is much more efficient since internal combustion engines effectively only use 15-25% of the fuel energy (obviously not including the oxygen you get for "free") into doing useful work. Your politicians might be ignorant, but so is much of the base which is why confidently made but erroneous statements are made by posters here pretty goshdarn often.
For me, this isn't a political decision. Filling an empty void with gasoline takes 5 minutes. I'm not a city dweller and I drive 25,000 miles a year, into rural areas and while occasionally towing things. Electrics, no matter how fast they charge, take hours not minutes to charge. The new Hummer takes 24 hours to charge on a 240v household Level 2 charger, and 4 days on a Level 1. This is not feasible for what I do. Even for the foreseeable future, EV's will never charge as fast as a gas tank can be refilled.
Not to mention that we still have to mine lithium out of the ground. Which is environmentally destructive, even more so than drilling for oil. If someone tomorrow invented a $35k electric SUV that charged from 0-100% in 5 minutes, and got 350 miles of range, and it ran reliably without battery replacement for 15 years, it would sell out overnight. We currently have that- it's called a Toyota RAV4.
Subaru PZEV engines emit cleaner exhaust than the air in many cities. Our filthy air is from diesel trucks, powerplants and small engines. Ban gas leaf blowers, I'm all for it. Keep the cars, because new cars are very clean. CA wants to ban natural gas now too. You're telling me that when everything is electric, the government doesn't have more control? Please. I hope people wake up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
^ The thing to consider is that higher gas prices can do the same thing in making people move back or closer to cities, similar to what occurred around 2008 and the recession when that became a thing. So, even if you take this electric car aspect off the table, gas prices can and played a part in people considering moving into or closer to cities. Keep in mind that in NY State, city land areas are small. So, living in a first or even second ring suburbs in many cases would be like living within the city in much of the South and some select other cities in other regions.
I also think it the purpose is to offer another option besides gas, given how prices have skewed higher multiple times within the past 15 years. So, it may actually offer more choice in terms of the type of vehicle one can drive. Especially given how far out and gradual a complete change would have to be.
I have no issue with electric cars being offered, though I do think the environmental destruction from lithium mining is unnecessary and once a mountain is destroyed, it can never be restored. We should be careful what natural resources we destroy forever. Land and water are not renewable.
What I don't like are mandates. They don't work for vaccines and they don't work for transportation. Hopefully people will learn this, and not just continue to follow the "current trend".
I have no issue with electric cars being offered, though I do think the environmental destruction from lithium mining is unnecessary and once a mountain is destroyed, it can never be restored. We should be careful what natural resources we destroy forever. Land and water are not renewable.
What I don't like are mandates. They don't work for vaccines and they don't work for transportation. Hopefully people will learn this, and not just continue to follow the "current trend".
Have you noticed that so many of the young, and the "educated" have lost the ability to reason, and think things through for themselves? They always hook themselves to someone else's viewpoint. Ask them to back up "their" viewpoint and they get angry at you because they can't do it.
Have you noticed that so many of the young, and the "educated" have lost the ability to reason, and think things through for themselves? They always hook themselves to someone else's viewpoint. Ask them to back up "their" viewpoint and they get angry at you because they can't do it.
I consider myself blessed to be the last generation (Gen X) to have been taught history and to question authority. We were taught to question the narrative. Today, people blindly follow whatever "the current thing" is. I hope people wake up but I don't really see it happening.
For me, this isn't a political decision. Filling an empty void with gasoline takes 5 minutes. I'm not a city dweller and I drive 25,000 miles a year, into rural areas and while occasionally towing things. Electrics, no matter how fast they charge, take hours not minutes to charge. The new Hummer takes 24 hours to charge on a 240v household Level 2 charger, and 4 days on a Level 1. This is not feasible for what I do. Even for the foreseeable future, EV's will never charge as fast as a gas tank can be refilled.
Not to mention that we still have to mine lithium out of the ground. Which is environmentally destructive, even more so than drilling for oil. If someone tomorrow invented a $35k electric SUV that charged from 0-100% in 5 minutes, and got 350 miles of range, and it ran reliably without battery replacement for 15 years, it would sell out overnight. We currently have that- it's called a Toyota RAV4.
Subaru PZEV engines emit cleaner exhaust than the air in many cities. Our filthy air is from diesel trucks, powerplants and small engines. Ban gas leaf blowers, I'm all for it. Keep the cars, because new cars are very clean. CA wants to ban natural gas now too. You're telling me that when everything is electric, the government doesn't have more control? Please. I hope people wake up.
I have no issue with electric cars being offered, though I do think the environmental destruction from lithium mining is unnecessary and once a mountain is destroyed, it can never be restored. We should be careful what natural resources we destroy forever. Land and water are not renewable.
What I don't like are mandates. They don't work for vaccines and they don't work for transportation. Hopefully people will learn this, and not just continue to follow the "current trend".
To be honest, gas requires drilling as well. So, there will still be some environmental implications either way, would there not?
I don't think anyone is agreeing with mandates, but I think there is room for more options in terms of energy in relation to transportation.
For me, this isn't a political decision. Filling an empty void with gasoline takes 5 minutes. I'm not a city dweller and I drive 25,000 miles a year, into rural areas and while occasionally towing things. Electrics, no matter how fast they charge, take hours not minutes to charge. The new Hummer takes 24 hours to charge on a 240v household Level 2 charger, and 4 days on a Level 1. This is not feasible for what I do. Even for the foreseeable future, EV's will never charge as fast as a gas tank can be refilled.
Not to mention that we still have to mine lithium out of the ground. Which is environmentally destructive, even more so than drilling for oil. If someone tomorrow invented a $35k electric SUV that charged from 0-100% in 5 minutes, and got 350 miles of range, and it ran reliably without battery replacement for 15 years, it would sell out overnight. We currently have that- it's called a Toyota RAV4.
Subaru PZEV engines emit cleaner exhaust than the air in many cities. Our filthy air is from diesel trucks, powerplants and small engines. Ban gas leaf blowers, I'm all for it. Keep the cars, because new cars are very clean. CA wants to ban natural gas now too. You're telling me that when everything is electric, the government doesn't have more control? Please. I hope people wake up.
I have no issue with electric cars being offered, though I do think the environmental destruction from lithium mining is unnecessary and once a mountain is destroyed, it can never be restored. We should be careful what natural resources we destroy forever. Land and water are not renewable.
What I don't like are mandates. They don't work for vaccines and they don't work for transportation. Hopefully people will learn this, and not just continue to follow the "current trend".
It's a bit unfortunate that you can watch that video and think there are contradictions between what I wrote in my post and what was stated in that video. Do you want to try pointing out where you thought those contradictions were?
It's certainly not the sales data, right? It also isn't anything about the rate of increase for volumetric and gravimetric density since he states that they can and will continue to improve--I just gave a rough idea of how much over the last several decades. He mentions the batteries are heavier than the equivalent energy in gasoline, but he didn't bother to mention that other components of the powertrain that either don't need to be there at all or are much lighter or that EV powertrains are a lot more efficient with the energy they have, so there are no contradictions there either.
In fact, his points about internal combustion engines staying with us and needing to improve is something I agree with, and in the same way. That is to say, there are a lot of applications where EVs aren't going to displace those anytime particularly soon. He mentions freight trucking, freight rail (this one I disagree with and can show why on an engineering and physics basis as well as actual existing battery electric locomotives and multiple units), and airplanes. Great, so with we're all being in agreement here, then you are also in agreement with what he said at about 6:25 "right now we’re really in the sweet spot where passenger cars make sense, but things larger than that don’t quite yet"? Is that how you feel? Well, great, then, this is fine because his "right now" was two and a half years ago, and the "right now" we have is a good twelve years before 2035 and this mandate covers passenger vehicles. It's amazing that you cite this video, but apparently slept through the points actually pertinent to this situation. Do you need me to hope that you wake up long enough to watch the video your next time through? HEY WAKE UP.
I think your next bit about charging is pretty common silliness thrown around by people who have no experience and little knowledge of electric vehicles, but are very willing to weigh in. There are flocks and flocks of people around the internet who post the same things and pretty obviously are getting this info second hand probably stemming from the same sources. Let me try to help you understand it a little.
The most direct analogue to filling up like a gas vehicle at a gas station are DC fast chargers and those are currently slower than filling up with gas. However, they are not hours long like you're saying--they're tens of minutes depending on the vehicle and the situation. Also keep in mind that this is also one of the fastest improving metrics for EVs. Remember, 12 years ago, your max charge rate (and it was impossible to find any stations outside of a few spots in California) was 50 kW. The max now is 350 kW in the US with 500 kW tested elsewhere. This means you can add a couple hundred miles to some vehicles in 18 minutes or about 75 miles in five. So, slower than gas vehicles currently, but in tens of minutes rather than in hours. This will obviously improve and if the rate of improvement this coming twelve years matches that of the previous twelve years, then you'll end up with EV fast charging adding more miles per minute than ICE vehicles currently do at the pump, but even if it doesn't get to that speed, it's again, even currently, not hours of charging at DC fast charging.
However, DC fast charging isn't the only way people charge and it's a minority of how people charge. Instead, the most likely is the next up which is level 2 charging. This is charging at 200V-240V AC plugs of different kinds (like a plug for your dryer for example). These are usually cheap to install (or free if you just have it where you park) and they generally add tens of miles of range an hour which is a lot slower than a DC fast charger, but it's delivered to your house and you generally just do it overnight when you car is parked anyhow. The Hummer EV is very power hungry (and a tiny minority of EV market share) but even that can charge 16 miles an hour on a level 2 charger, so an overnight of 8 hours gets you over 120 miles a night, so even with that power hungry of a vehicle will recover enough from convenient home charging for most people's daily use.
After that is the currently rarely used level 1 charger where you charge off of a standard wall socket. Relatively few people do this because it's much slower. It's nice that it's an *option*, that you can basically go anywhere that there's a grid and charge a bit, but it's only going to be a usable standard practice for people who have daily commutes that can be covered with an overnight charge when factored with their vehicle's efficiency. I do think this one is interesting though, because EVs within their automotive segment have generally seen pretty good efficiency improvements over the last twelve years and with that ongoing, we keep extending the range added per overnight charge at a standard wall socket. I think it's possible that if we hit something like 5 miles per kWh efficiency even with inverters at their current efficiency (though that's likely to improve as well), then we're talking about the vast majority of the US daily commute figures being able to be covered with an overnight charge from even a standard wall socket.
I have no idea how you got to mining for lithium is more environmentally destructive than extracting oil. That's a new one. You also don't seem to understand how lithium mining works. It'd be interesting to know on what basis you're arguing that especially as lithium in an EV is not analogous to petroleum for an ICE vehicle. I'll add though that a large EV battery pack has about 10 kg of lithium and that's probably usable for a couple of decades, maybe longer if you reuse it for another application. After that, it's recyclable. A gallon of gasoline is about 2.7 kg and you are definitely not going to find an economical way of recycling that. Try thinking through that math for a second.
Well at least we both agree with Jason that "right now* we’re really in the sweet spot where passenger cars make sense" when it comes to electric vehicles. I think we can all agree that it'd also be crazy if this mandate were for all internal combustion engines and covered airplanes as well--which, wow, it does not! We also agree on mandates--I would've much preferred pricing in negative externalities as stated from the beginning.
*two and a half years ago.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-05-2022 at 01:47 PM..
Have you noticed that so many of the young, and the "educated" have lost the ability to reason, and think things through for themselves? They always hook themselves to someone else's viewpoint. Ask them to back up "their" viewpoint and they get angry at you because they can't do it.
Yea, totally relying on Newtonian physics and Maxwell's equations. Shame on these people with actual engineering and physics knowledge building off someone else instead of finding a way to poop out of their own mouths and fingers or whatever weird facebook garbage or chain email you have for sources. Shame!
Let me ask you some real simple things. How many EVs have you driven and for how long? What were these EVs? Have you ever done a road trip with one, and if so, what vehicle and how recently?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-05-2022 at 01:11 PM..
It's a bit unfortunate that you can watch that video and think there are contradictions between what I wrote in my post and what was stated in that video. Do you want to try pointing out where you thought those contradictions were?
It's certainly not the sales data, right? It also isn't anything about the rate of increase for volumetric and gravimetric density since he states that they can and will continue to improve--I just gave a rough idea of how much over the last several decades. He mentions the batteries are heavier than the equivalent energy in gasoline, but he didn't bother to mention that other components of the powertrain that either don't need to be there at all or are much lighter or that an EV powertrain are a lot more efficient with the energy they have, so there are no contradictions there either.
In fact, his points about internal combustion engines staying with us and needing to improve is something I agree with, and in the same way. That is to say, there are a lot of applications where EVs aren't going to displace those anytime particularly soon. He mentions freight trucking, freight rail (this one I disagree with and can show why on an engineering and physics basis as well as actual existing battery electric locomotives and multiple units), and airplanes. Great, so with we're all being in agreement here, then you are also in agreement with what he said at about 6:25 "right now we’re really in the sweet spot where passenger cars make sense, but things larger than that don’t quite yet"? Is that how you feel? Well, great, then, this is fine because his "right now" was two and a half years ago, and the "right now" we have is a good twelve years before 2035 and this mandate covers passenger vehicles. It's amazing that you cite this video, but apparently slept through the points actually pertinent to this situation. Do you need me to hope that you wake up long enough to watch the video your next time through? HEY WAKE UP.
I think your next bit about charging is pretty common silliness thrown around by people who have no experience and little knowledge of electric vehicles, but are very willing to weigh in. There are flocks and flocks of people around the internet who post the same things and pretty obviously are getting this info second hand probably stemming from the same sources. Let me try to help you understand it a little.
The most direct analogue to filling up like a gas vehicle at a gas station are DC fast chargers and those are currently slower than filling up with gas. However, they are not hours long like you're saying--they're tens of minutes depending on the vehicle and the situation. Also keep in mind that this is also one of the fastest improving metrics for EVs. Remember, 12 years ago, your max charge rate (and it was impossible to find any stations outside of a few spots in California) was 50 kW. The max now is 350 kW in the US with 500 kW tested elsewhere. This means you can add a couple hundred miles to some vehicles in 18 minutes or about 75 miles in five. So, slower than gas vehicles currently, but in tens of minutes rather than in hours. This will obviously improve and if the rate of improvement this coming twelve years matches that of the previous twelve years, then you'll end up with EV fast charging adding more miles per minute than ICE vehicles currently do at the pump, but even if it doesn't get to that speed, it's again, even currently, not hours of charging at DC fast charging.
However, DC fast charging isn't the only way people charge and it's a minority of how people charge. Instead, the most likely is the next up which is level 2 charging. This is charging at 200V-240V AC plugs of different kinds (like a plug for your dryer for example). These are usually cheap to install (or free if you just have it where you park) and they generally add tens of miles of range an hour which is a lot slower than a DC fast charger, but it's delivered to your house and you generally just do it overnight when you car is parked anyhow. The Hummer EV is very power hungry (and a tiny minority of EV market share) but even that can charge 16 miles an hour on a level 2 charger, so an overnight of 8 hours gets you over 120 miles a night, so even with that power hungry of a vehicle will recover enough from convenient home charging for most people's daily use.
After that is the currently rarely used level 1 charger where you charge off of a standard wall socket. Relatively few people do this because it's much slower. It's nice that it's an *option*, that you can basically go anywhere that there's a grid and charge a bit, but it's only going to be a usable standard practice for people who have daily commutes that can be covered with an overnight charge when factored with their vehicle's efficiency. I do think this one is interesting though, because EVs within their automotive segment have generally seen pretty good efficiency improvements over the last twelve years and with that ongoing, we keep extending the range added per overnight charge at a standard wall socket. I think it's possible that if we hit something like 5 miles per kWh efficiency even with inverters at their current efficiency (though that's likely to improve as well), then we're talking about the vast majority of the US daily commute figures being able to be covered with an overnight charge from even a standard wall socket.
I have no idea how you got to mining for lithium is more environmentally destructive than extracting oil. That's a new one. You also don't seem to understand how lithium mining works. It'd be interesting to know on what basis you're arguing that especially as lithium in an EV is not analogous to petroleum for an ICE vehicle. I'll add though that a large EV battery pack has about 10 kg of lithium and that's probably usable for a couple of decades, maybe longer if you reuse it for another application. After that, it's recyclable. A gallon of gasoline is about 2.7 kg and you are definitely not going to find an economical way of recycling that. Try thinking through that math for a second.
Well at least we both agree with Jason that "right now* we’re really in the sweet spot where passenger cars make sense" when it comes to electric vehicles. I think we can all agree that it'd also be crazy if this mandate were for all internal combustion engines and covered airplanes as well--which, wow, it does not! We also agree on mandates--I would've much preferred pricing in negative externalities as stated from the beginning.
*two and a half years ago.
I didn't read your post because when you start off a conversation the way you did, I realize I have better things to do with my time.
Frankly, your smugness and pseudo-intellectual way of down-talking to people is off-putting. Enjoy your day.
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