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As for me, and thousands like me, I am a rural purist whose dream it is to live in an idealized version of 19th century rural America. That includes meticulously and authentically rennovating an old farmhouse until it looks like spread from Country Living magazine, and working on my "farmette" or hobby farm, raising exotic chickens and growing boutique vegetables. Sorry, but a stark-white, 410 ft. rotating steel structure doesn't fit into my lifestyle fantasies.
You can't possibly be a purist- you are communicating to us all via computer and the internet (which is likely where you get most of your information on how to raise those exotic chickens and boutique vegetables), you've got electric lights and I'm sure all mod cons in that old farmhouse (thus rendering it inauthentic), which no doubt was/is being meticulously renovated not using the sort of handtools and great human labor that originally built it, but rather modern powertools. All of these things that make your dream possible are energy intensive, and that energy has to come from somewhere- oil, coal...... wind...... solar..... That stark-white, 410 ft. rotating steel structure may be the thing that makes your lifestyle fantasies possible! Don't get me wrong- I share much of your rural-life dream, and largely from information this very forum has exposed me to I'm very skeptical of most wind development projects targeting upstate NY, but the aesthetic issues at least need to be kept in perspective. A car in the drive, a microwave oven, washer & dryer, satellite dish, power lines, paved driveway... all of those are as inauthentic to 19th century rural America as a wind turbine. In fact maybe more so- true, it is a radical difference in scale, but nearly every 19th century farm actually had a windmill on the property for pumping water, etc.
Added-
I don't mean to imply that aesthetics are not important- obviously they are. But I do think that to argue against turbines on aesthetic reasons is a mistake- it is entirely subjective and too easily criticized as elitist and unfair and used to obscure and undermine more valid argument based on fact.
And as usual, there isn't much to add to JustSayNo's post. I'll second 'the Corporation' having read the Joel Bakan book of the same name that the doc was based on. A little dry at times (though the movie version is probably more dynamic), but a real eye-opener in terms of understanding how/why things work the way they do in the business and corporate world. Hard to come away without thinking that the corporate structure and mandate is humanity's Frankenstien monster.
Last edited by honeychrome; 03-07-2007 at 08:45 AM..
Oh, honeychrome, you silly billy! My post was facetious - at least most of it. Didn't you see the smilie face? I was being, uh, sly. Because I suspect a lot of what I said is what many who have relocated upstate actually think. People who move there are buying a lifestyle. Many have money, and this is their second residence. They want it to be all very tasteful and gentrified, and giant steel windmills that emit loud noises and flickering light effects somehow just don't fit in!
And what's wrong with being critical of something on aesthetic grounds alone? Should people grin and bear it because this is an "acceptable" green energy source? Isn't it "elitist" to tell people who may have invested their life savings in a farm or home in the country that their dreams must be overshadowed, literally and figuratively, for the sake of a dubious experiment whose only real beneficiary, so far, is the wind companies themselves?
I don't think that aesthetic opposition to turbines is necessarily an invalid argument, I just see it as a weak one, or at the least one that tends to be intractable- it is going to be virtually impossible to convince someone who thinks they are ugly that they are beautiful and vice versa. It's pretty much a dead end in making an argument for or against or in changing someone's mind and I think focusing on it can confuse the issue and divert attention from aspects of the argument that CAN change someone's mind, such as costs, who really benefits, who pays, etc. Such arguments, based as they are on facts (granted it can be hard to unearth those facts when interested parties do all they can to hide them) CAN change attitudes- someone who thinks they're beautiful can be convinced that they're a bad deal if that's what the numbers really show, just as someone who thinks they are ugly may come around to accepting them if the numbers were to show they'd never have to pay an electric bill again.
I didn't say that I believe the aesthetic argument IS an elitist one (at least in the case of upstate NY), but I have seen it often criticized as such. The argument goes that fairly recently arrived second/retirement homeowners with money don't like the way turbines impinge on their country lifestyle fantasies, but desperate multi-generation family farmers see wind development as a way to hold onto their farms and their country lifestyle. Pretty easy to get public support behind the all-American poor traditional family farmer and against the 'view-shedders.' No, I don't believe this is the truth of the matter, but it is a easy argument to get a response out of. My point was basically that if we stick to the numbers and the facts the argument against industrial wind development in most of upstate NY is stronger.
I fear this thread is dangerously close to being closed by the powers that be.... but I hope not, its interesting and important.
Oh Honey, you have learned SO much since this started. I could not have said it any better. So, HA, I have nothing to add to your comment
I think that the first thread was closed becuase it was not "on-topic." ?!
This topic is very On-topic because it is all about rural NYS, and rural NYS is a huge target at the moment, and many people in the last few years relocated without any knowledge of turbines in their area. I think if we keep "specific" events out we should be OK. This way it does not appear to be a personal agenda by any one person
This is a HUGE topic in rural NYS and I am thrilled to the core that so much valuable research and information has been shared and kept in the light! We al can always learn more, and this is the way to do it
But honeychrome...how do you know the the pro-turbine farmers really want them there? If they could be completely honest, and they can't because of the gag order they signed, they might say they think they are horrible monstrosities but they are doing it to save the family farm. Does that make their opinion any more valid - or just self-serving? It's like the poverty-stricken family who looks the other way with tears in their eyes while their beautiful daughter works as an exotic dancer to help put food on the table. Of course, equating the two situations is ridiculous, but the sentiments are the same. However, the family of the stripper are only hurting themselves, while the farmer who sells out to the turbine companies is destroying a landscape for generations, not to mention the turmoil and grief it causes the neighbors.
Last edited by looking4home; 03-10-2007 at 08:49 PM..
Reason: grammar
Uh, looking4home, you're completely missing my point. I'm against industrial wind development for most of upstate NY- right now it really just looks like a big subsidy scam playing on the hot public marketability and political advantage of anything that can be in the slightest way sold as being 'green' and 'renewable,' and all of the long-term costs will be externalized by the developers (who will no doubt be long gone with full pockets when the biggest costs do become apparent). I don't doubt that there are farmers in situations exactly as you describe. My point was about the means of arguing against industrial wind development....
I'm against industrial wind development for most of upstate NY- right now it really just looks like a big subsidy scam playing on the hot public marketability and political advantage of anything that can be in the slightest way sold as being 'green' and 'renewable,' and all of the long-term costs will be externalized by the developers (who will no doubt be long gone with full pockets when the biggest costs do become apparent).
Do you mind if I quote you on a regular basis? You've captured the essence of the problem in one lovely sentance!
I probably would like it, and I can guarantee I hate corporations more than you do. Im saying you can no more prevent your hick neighbor from being white trash, than you can from a wind power company legitimately buying property and using it the way they want when there is NO ZONING RESTRICTION. If the local population is ignorant thats thier own fault. It sucks but hey... what are ya gonna do? I also watched the 2 documentaries you referenced in a previous post on YouTube.. and then I watched another one that was listed that showed the people in the town of Fenner, NY than had no problem whatsoever with the towers. They even went as far to say the exact opposite that the complainers say.
(coincidentally, they mention in there that cars and coal fired power plants have caused an increase in the acidity of precipitation that has already turned lakes in the Adirondacks completely sterile. )
A couple other things.. you mention these wind towers should be built away from populated areas.... uhm you are the unpopulated area. Theres almost no where you can go in NYS that doesnt have some people living in it somewhere. Theres hundreds, if not well over a 1000 tiny towns in this state. We do not have true uninhabited places like they do out west. (e.g. when you reach the end of the town.. thats it... there is nothing until you get to the next town. Places in NYS get sparse, but hardly to that level. Even the huge parks have towns inside.)
I brought up Bethlehem steel cause tons of people think THAT is an eyesore. I think people around here want to see something, anything, get built. I agree with them. It would be different if it provided the jobs it used to. It doesnt. Its over a mile mile of crumbling brick structures on both sides of rt 5 thru lackawanna. (I personally dont care either way) However.. is what is basically minimalist white pinwheels above it an improvement or a deterioration -- Discuss.
it is too bad that wind towers are not good for the environment either, just like compact fluorescents are not either. They are good in one way, but you have to think of the total environmental impact, which isn't necessally good or bad, but to say that industrial power plants are good, is by no means true.
Either way, unless the communities here in Western NY actually get something for allowing industrial power plants in their towns, they won't allow them.
I say go small scale. Many small scale wind and solar projects will have a lot less of an impact than huge industrial wind turbine projects do.
Stop worrying about the Wind Farms and START WORRYING about the FACTORY DAIRY FARMS! Milk cost 25% more than a GALLON OF GASOLINE! The Factory Farms (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations) are expanding at record levels! You don't want to buy a house within FIVE MILES of one of these places and there is no guarantee that they won't build near you anyway. MILLIONS OF GALLONS of COW CRAP is worse than a WIND FARM! Depend on it!
[quote=JustSayNo;368275]Indeed, that is also something that upsets people up here. We have no cell phone coverage here for at least 10 miles.
I live smack in the middle of the Capital District and the cell coverage is pitiful. There are so many dead spots you can almost never complete an average length conversation. I wonder if the environmental folks have something to do with it. It seems whenever another tower is proposed, they have to conduct a full wetlands impact study or can never get around the strict zoning. I guess I was spoiled living in NC. They have the opposite problem. They dont care a hoot about the environment or wetlands. They build anything, anytime and anywhere. Which has its problems, But the cell coverage is pretty much continuous throughout the state.
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hallelujah honeychorome
