I have an idea - Let's scare off the last rich people we have here (unemployed, transfer)
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Your original hypothesis when you started this thread was:
There are very few wealthy people in NYS
The few that are here are moving away because the top-bracket state tax rate went up (from 6.85% to 8.97%)
Neither of these is an actual fact, and I haven't seen any evidence to contradict it.
Now, to get back to the somewhat off-topic subject of economic growth: Low tax, low regulation economies like those found in the South and Southwest are good for business, good for entrepreneurship and company creation, and generally promote faster growth. No argument whatsoever.
However, the flip side of this approach is that it subjects the local economy to more severe boom-and-bust cycles. Now that we are in a global recession where growth has gone negative everywhere, we are seeing the bust cycle run its course, which is why we are seeing higher unemployment rates, more severe real estate crises and greater rates of economic decline in these areas vs. places with more generous social safety nets (the "nanny state") and a more established wealthy class.
But with freedom comes responsibility, so hopefully those who enjoyed the boom times down south and out west managed to build up big savings accounts to ride out the current bust. Since we all know that didn't happen, the damage to the local economies is more severe as a higher number of formerly middle-class people fall down the economic ladder because of the lack of things like a livable unemployment benefit or affordable heath care.
I'm not making a value judgment on anything. As I've often said, to each his own, every place has its pros and cons, and people should be responsible for themselves. As a young person moving to the South, you need to be prepared for this boom-and-bust reality. However, it appears that the governmental economic policies of the New South are starting to go through changes and become more like the Northeast, which is inevitable because government everywhere has a tendency to grow because those in power and those who enjoy benefits from those in power prefer to keep it that way.
Your original hypothesis when you started this thread was:
There are very few wealthy people in NYS
The few that are here are moving away because the top-bracket state tax rate went up (from 6.85% to 8.97%)
Neither of these is an actual fact, and I haven't seen any evidence to contradict it.
Now, to get back to the somewhat off-topic subject of economic growth: Low tax, low regulation economies like those found in the South and Southwest are good for business, good for entrepreneurship and company creation, and generally promote faster growth. No argument whatsoever.
However, the flip side of this approach is that it subjects the local economy to more severe boom-and-bust cycles. Now that we are in a global recession where growth has gone negative everywhere, we are seeing the bust cycle run its course, which is why we are seeing higher unemployment rates, more severe real estate crises and greater rates of economic decline in these areas vs. places with more generous social safety nets (the "nanny state") and a more established wealthy class.
But with freedom comes responsibility, so hopefully those who enjoyed the boom times down south and out west managed to build up big savings accounts to ride out the current bust. Since we all know that didn't happen, the damage to the local economies is more severe as a higher number of formerly middle-class people fall down the economic ladder because of the lack of things like a livable unemployment benefit or affordable heath care.
I'm not making a value judgment on anything. As I've often said, to each his own, every place has its pros and cons, and people should be responsible for themselves. As a young person moving to the South, you need to be prepared for this boom-and-bust reality. However, it appears that the governmental economic policies of the New South are starting to go through changes and become more like the Northeast, which is inevitable because government everywhere has a tendency to grow because those in power and those who enjoy benefits from those in power prefer to keep it that way.
Exactly!
What it seems like you ended up touching on is the unfortunate reality of special interests and politics. That's why I say that we live in a more of a capitalist bureaucracy than a democracy, in many ways.
Also, with the higher unemployment rate, how are these people being compensated when there isn't much in terms of taxes going towards such things like unemployment insurance?
You are indeed right, it does pay far more to not work in New York, than to not work in North Carolina.
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Then, you have to remember that you still get taxes in Southern states, but it is done in different ways. You can be taxed on vehicles or even other possessions in a way it almost evens out.
Not even close to accurate. The overall tax burden in New York 12.8% of your total income. In Michigan, it is 25% lower at 10%. In Nevada is 40% lower at 7.9% percent.
Just because Virginia taxes your car, doesn't make it a higher tax state. That argument is just plain silly. The FACT is that people hate New York because of our ultra-high taxes. You can't even argue that we remotely close to most other states.
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That's why I say that we live in a more of a capitalist bureaucracy than a democracy, in many ways.
We aren't supposed to be a democracy, the United States was set up as, and is a Republic, however over 100 years Republicanism has been eroding away in order to make way for Progressivism.
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Your original hypothesis when you started this thread was:
There are very few wealthy people in NYS
The few that are here are moving away because the top-bracket state tax rate went up (from 6.85% to 8.97%)
I never said that there were few rich folks here. I know that we are one of the richest states per capita in the nation.
It is undeniable that many are moving to lower tax states.
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However, the flip side of this approach is that it subjects the local economy to more severe boom-and-bust cycles. Now that we are in a global recession where growth has gone negative everywhere, we are seeing the bust cycle run its course, which is why we are seeing higher unemployment rates, more severe real estate crises and greater rates of economic decline in these areas vs. places with more generous social safety nets (the "nanny state") and a more established wealthy class.
Sure, but what would you prefer, an 8.2% unemployment rate, like in New York, or more freedom, like in Texas. I'll take my freedom over money any day.
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fall down the economic ladder because of the lack of things like a livable unemployment benefit or affordable heath care.
We offer so much to people who don't work in every state, that it should be a punch line. If you weren't responsible, and you didn't save enough money to live, you don't deserve to live the way you have been. What is a livable unemployment? Because as far as I know, no one has died of starvation in the country because no one would feed them.
I'm guessing that your idea of a livable unemployment mean being able to afford some luxuries, like a cell phone, cable, and high speed internet. Well, it shouldn't be - unemployment isn't a vacation.
i agree lots of spending and no taxes. another thing you can do is allow them to continue to get richer by exporting all our jobs and tearing down our borders, continue hating unions, rich guys dont like them either. these poor ol rich guys needs all the help they can get.
You are indeed right, it does pay far more to not work in New York, than to not work in North Carolina.
Not even close to accurate. The overall tax burden in New York 12.8% of your total income. In Michigan, it is 25% lower at 10%. In Nevada is 40% lower at 7.9% percent.
Just because Virginia taxes your car, doesn't make it a higher tax state. That argument is just plain silly. The FACT is that people hate New York because of our ultra-high taxes. You can't even argue that we remotely close to most other states.
We aren't supposed to be a democracy, the United States was set up as, and is a Republic, however over 100 years Republicanism has been eroding away in order to make way for Progressivism.
I never said that there were few rich folks here. I know that we are one of the richest states per capita in the nation.
It is undeniable that many are moving to lower tax states.
Sure, but what would you prefer, an 8.2% unemployment rate, like in New York, or more freedom, like in Texas. I'll take my freedom over money any day.
We offer so much to people who don't work in every state, that it should be a punch line. If you weren't responsible, and you didn't save enough money to live, you don't deserve to live the way you have been. What is a livable unemployment? Because as far as I know, no one has died of starvation in the country because no one would feed them.
I'm guessing that your idea of a livable unemployment mean being able to afford some luxuries, like a cell phone, cable, and high speed internet. Well, it shouldn't be - unemployment isn't a vacation.
I never said other states had higher tax rates. I just said what I said to show that taxes are a necessary evil in every state and is rising in other states.
What's also interesting from looking at the tax burdens list you posted is that most of the higher taxed states tend to be states with very good educational systems. Wisconsin, Minnesota, NY, California, NJ and Maryland, were generally in the top 10 for burdens.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-26-2009 at 04:41 PM..
Look at the top 25 schools in the nation, they are pretty well distributed along high tax/low tax states. Plenty of studies have shown that more spending on schools, does not equal higher grades, or higher graduation rates.
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Huckleberry3911948
Ugh. One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board... And there have been some pretty dumb ones
Look at the top 25 schools in the nation, they are pretty well distributed along high tax/low tax states. Plenty of studies have shown that more spending on schools, does not equal higher grades, or higher graduation rates.
Ugh. One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board... And there have been some pretty dumb ones
Again, I never said that there was acorrelation between more spending and educational attainment. I just said that states known for high taxes tend to be states with good reputations in terms of education. Minnesota and Wisconsin are or were regulars in the top 5 states. California and NY are also known for having generally good schools. Same with NJ, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Vermont.
Again, I never said that there was acorrelation between more spending and educational attainment. I just said that states known for high taxes tend to be states with good reputations in terms of education. Minnesota and Wisconsin are or were regulars in the top 5 states. California and NY are also known for having generally good schools. Same with NJ, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Vermont.
No, I know you didn't. But you said that higher tax states have better schools... Which isn't always true. Some low tax states (KS, NE, SD, MT, ID, NH) have GREAT high school graduation rates.
I know that people will get ticked... but look at the number of black students in a given school district, and you will find an even stronger correlation.
You will note that ultra-Liberal California has a low graduation rate, but it has a high rate of minorities... Ditto New York. There is a strong trend of minorities driving down graduation rates.
Here's a question for New Yorkers, how does it feel that Arkansas, Texas, West Virginia, Mississippi, and Louisiana all have higher graduation rates that New York?
Yes, the states that you mock as being backwards spend less money, but graduate more students than New York. Is it that perhaps less tax dollars might lead to better schools, or are New Yorkers naturally stupid?
I'll let you answer that.
** As a note, the place where I was educated has a 10% drop-out rate, is over 65% Conservative according to a 2008 poll, and is known to have some of the best schools.
Look at the top 25 schools in the nation, they are pretty well distributed along high tax/low tax states. Plenty of studies have shown that more spending on schools, does not equal higher grades, or higher graduation rates.
Ugh. One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board... And there have been some pretty dumb ones
sorry you dont like my post, would you care to tell us why you think it is dumb, after all-- dumb means the inability to express one's self.
or make one's self understood.
I'm guessing that your idea of a livable unemployment mean being able to afford some luxuries, like a cell phone, cable, and high speed internet. Well, it shouldn't be - unemployment isn't a vacation.
And it never was intended to be a vacation. It is intended to be a way to keep you financially afloat for a temporary period until you can find equivalent employment. And when you are job hunting, a cell phone and high-speed internet are necessities, not luxuries. The point of view here that there is very little overall economic advantage to turning a middle-class engineer or accountant who is a homeowner into a poor rent-paying dishwasher, just because he was laid off. It is not about paying people not to work. It is about giving the involuntary unemployed the ability keep what they have while they find equivalent work.
As I said before, I have no agenda here and I am not making value judgments on one system vs. another. I only post relevant facts.
When you say "I'll take my freedom over money any day", it shows that you are young and idealistic. This idealism is is a good thing and you should embrace it. But when you are older, you will probably have adult responsibilities like a mortgage and children, but hopefully you will have also seen more of the world, experienced good times and bad times, and met people from varied backgrounds. All of this will make you wiser, more pragmatic and able to see things from multiple points of view.
Last edited by SunnyKayak; 07-26-2009 at 07:28 PM..
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