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As a New Jersey native, whenever I hear the word "New York" I think of NYC. This is despite the fact that I am two towns over from the NY State border. Anyway, in the past few years I have been taking daytrips up to the Catskills and Hudson River Valley. I found it to be beautiful country. Hyde Park, Bear Mountain and Woodstock in the Catskills looked very lovely. However, I hear that the economy of the upstate region is not doing well. I understand much of upstate NY is part of the Rust Belt that declined with the decline of our heavy industries. Perhaps, I did not go far north enough in NY State to see any signs of economic decline, but is UpState New York really doing that bad? Aren't some areas upstate doing better than others? What is it really like outside the areas that I previously mentioned; economically speaking. Is the state trying to diversify its upstate economy, like what turned Pittsburgh around or is the state still the decaying Rsut Belt? Like I said, I live so close to the NY border but still do not know a whole lot about New York State. (Most trips to NY where to NYC despite several recent daytrips). Please described what the conditions are really like upstate.
As a New Jersey native, whenever I hear the word "New York" I think of NYC. This is despite the fact that I am two towns over from the NY State border. Anyway, in the past few years I have been taking daytrips up to the Catskills and Hudson River Valley. I found it to be beautiful country. Hyde Park, Bear Mountain and Woodstock in the Catskills looked very lovely. However, I hear that the economy of the upstate region is not doing well. I understand much of upstate NY is part of the Rust Belt that declined with the decline of our heavy industries. Perhaps, I did not go far north enough in NY State to see any signs of economic decline, but is UpState New York really doing that bad? Aren't some areas upstate doing better than others? What is it really like outside the areas that I previously mentioned; economically speaking. Is the state trying to diversify its upstate economy, like what turned Pittsburgh around or is the state still the decaying Rsut Belt? Like I said, I live so close to the NY border but still do not know a whole lot about New York State. (Most trips to NY where to NYC despite several recent daytrips). Please described what the conditions are really like upstate.
It does vary by area. Right now, smaller cities like Ithaca, Plattsburgh, Saratoga Springs, Watertown and Orange County has seem an increase in population over the 2000-2009 decade.
It also depends on your skill set and industry. For instance, in Syracuse, thigns like health care, higher education and engineering are doing fine, among some others. Here's an example of jobs in that area: Central New York Jobs
So, it's not a complete loss and I believe it is a part of the state in a state of transition in terms of the economy.
Our area is a bedroom community. We have a lot of people who live here who commute to jobs in Westchester, NYC and CT. We lost our two biggest employers in the early 90's-IBM and Texaco. Instead of bringing in more manufacturing-we got retail and food. Doesn't pay the bills. We got hit with the MTA tax here-it's made everything skyrocket, like automobile registrations and licenses. Plus employers have to pay a tax too now to the MTA. It's gotten very expensive to do business in Dutchess. If things don't change soon, we'll be part of that migration out of NYS.
See...those of us up here in Rochester, Buffalo. and Syracuse don't even consider Dutchess county to be upstate ny really. For me, its only areas north and west of the catskills that can really be considered "upstate". A line somewhere north of Kingston would be the boundary IMO.
While I agree with your 'line' I don't see the need for the constant haranguing of people who consider themselves to be 'Upstate'.
I was in Tarrytown at Sunnyside (Washington Irving's historic house) a few weeks ago and heard a 12 year old kid say, "Upstate sure is nice." I couldn't help laughing since we were about 20 miles from midtown Manhattan.
On the other hand, I know a guy from the Carthage/Black River area who considers Syracuse and Albany 'downstate'.
Also, as I believe I have stated in this thread (or a similar one), the East/West divide makes more sense.
Growing up, I had always heard that the Downstate <and slightly tongue-in-cheek> view of Upstate NY was anything north of Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx.
I think many people in WNY, CNY, The Southern Tier, The North Country and the Capital District likely view Downstate to now include counties as far north as Orange and Duchess to some degree.
As a native Central NY'er (Syracuse area), downstate is anywhere near NYC with an accent. Poughkeepsie is downstate, to me.
Upstate is largely considered to mean, in my experience, anything north or west of that [accent].
Upstate includes, using their common terms as I known them: the Empire region/Capital area, the Adirondacks, the North Country, Central New York, the Southern Tier, Finger Lakes region, Rochester metro, Buffalo metro and Western New York.
If you look at this map of Sections for high school sports in NY State according to the NYSPHSAA:
I would say that sections 1 and 9 are Downstate. 9 consists of Counties like Orange, Sullivan and Ulster, while 1 consists of the overwhelming majority of Dutchess(except for Hyde Park's FDR which plays in Section 9), Westchester, Putnam and Rockland Counties.
The areas of the Catskills and Hudson Valley you have explored are beautiful, and are also basically linked to the NYC metro area as either bedroom commuter communities or "weekend getaway" territory for NYC area residents.
North of the Catskills and West of Albany is a region that has more in common economically and culturally with the industrial heartland of America (Ohio, Michigan etc.) than it does with the urbanized East Coast, and has similar economic problems.
Regarding the differences in definition of "Upstate", which has been argued at great length in this forum: perceptions vary.
NYC residents do indeed refer to anything north of the Bronx as "Upstate", but they use it as a simple geographical reference to points north of the city. People who live outside of commuting range of NYC (generally north of the Orange/Putnam county lines), see Upstate/Downstate as a CULTURAL border, and thus draw that border in a place that is farther north -- outside of the commuting range, media market, and regional dialect of NYC.
This was considered upstate NY when I grew up here in the 60's-70's in Dutchess County. We had over 500 farms and were very rural. Honestly, I think it was ruined with the influx here from the downstaters. I can't wait to leave. I deal with arrogance, snootiness, rude, self serving people that have moved here on a daily basis. It's our way or get out of you don't like it. It wasn't like that at all growing up here. Everyone knew everyone and your parents got the phone call before you even got home. I can remember a horse that got loose from a farm nearby taking a stroll down my road at 3am. Forget that now-he'd be plowed over by the new central ave-aka Rt. 9. Perceptions change over the years, but until downstaters took over this area, we were upstaters just like everyone else.
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