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Old 02-28-2012, 10:18 PM
 
Location: rural North Carolina
272 posts, read 782,667 times
Reputation: 336

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I've lived in several states across the country but have only run into this situation here.

You have an interstate highway cross a 4 lane street. Due to geography there are only 3 ramps and one "petal" of a cloverleaf, giving drivers full access to the interstate and to the road it crosses.

Instead of turning right to get on the highway at the non-existent ramp, cars have to turn left on the cloverleaf.

Immediately after turning left to enter the cloverleaf, they are presented with a yield sign for drivers coming from the opposite direction who want to enter the interstate.

I've seen this twice here and it seems to me the yield sign should be on the drivers turning right to get on the cloverleaf since a backup there would not impede traffic flow. Instead what happens is that left turns cross traffic only to have to yield to those entering the cloverleaf.

Am I nuts or what?
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:46 AM
 
7,051 posts, read 12,262,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskirwin View Post
I've lived in several states across the country but have only run into this situation here.

You have an interstate highway cross a 4 lane street. Due to geography there are only 3 ramps and one "petal" of a cloverleaf, giving drivers full access to the interstate and to the road it crosses.

Instead of turning right to get on the highway at the non-existent ramp, cars have to turn left on the cloverleaf.

Immediately after turning left to enter the cloverleaf, they are presented with a yield sign for drivers coming from the opposite direction who want to enter the interstate.

I've seen this twice here and it seems to me the yield sign should be on the drivers turning right to get on the cloverleaf since a backup there would not impede traffic flow. Instead what happens is that left turns cross traffic only to have to yield to those entering the cloverleaf.

Am I nuts or what?
It would help if you can show us an example of what you are talking about. Still though, I've seen this type of set-up before as well. In this state (and many others) the left-turning vehicle must always yield to the right-turning vehicle. An example of this is any accident between a right-turning vehicle vs a left-turning vehicle. If both vehicles had green lights (and the left-turning vehicle did not have a green arrow; just a regular green light) the left-turning vehicle will almost always be at fault for "failure to yield" (even if a yield sign is not present).

Simply put; a right-turning vehicle with a green light has all of the legal backings of a vehicle going straight through an intersection with a green light. Other than pedestrians, emergency vehicles, and a yield sign (obviously); right-turning vehicles with green lights yield to no one. I could be wrong here, but this is what I've been taught (and I've held a CDL for nearly ten years now in three different states).

Be thankful, it could be worse. There are many major metro areas with traffic flow stop lights at the end of their freeway on-ramps. You won't find THAT in NC yet. And don't even get me started on those "jug-handle" turns in New Jersey, the tolls in NYC, and those Michigan U-Turns just to make a left. Trust me, you've got it good down here.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: rural North Carolina
272 posts, read 782,667 times
Reputation: 336


Right. To Google Maps!

Note that the car turning at the light (in red) would have to wait for oncoming traffic to pass through the intersection. That makes sense. But what about the traffic that uses exits from the road onto the entrance ramp (green). Shouldn't the yield sign be on their side instead of immediately after the intersection for the left turning car?

What happens at this intersection is that left turns get backed up and block the intersection waiting at the yield sign. This creates a hazard at the intersection. If the yield sign applied to those turning right, they would have plenty of room to back up before they created a hazard at the light on the left in the picture.
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:56 PM
 
Location: rural North Carolina
272 posts, read 782,667 times
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Confirmed this on a recent trip to Missouri. The yield sign applied to the cars turning right onto the clover leaf, forcing them to yield to those turning left to enter the highway.

I've driven about 1/2 a million miles in my time and only noticed this situation here in NC. Anyone have any idea what's up?
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Inactive Account
1,508 posts, read 2,959,114 times
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As a driver, my assumption would have been that the "left turn" driver is now going straight compared to the traffic merging from his right, therefore he has the right of way.

I don't think NC has many "unusual" traffic features compared to other states. (Let's not talk about South Carolina signage however, yiissshh.. )

NC doesn't make as much use of 4 way stops as I've seen in other states, though. Generally one road or the other will have precedence at an intersection.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:23 PM
 
Location: The 12th State
22,974 posts, read 65,252,507 times
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It makes since to me judging by that picture. Lets say both have line of traffic, you dont want the person yielding who just turn left because the traffic would over flow in the intersection.
If traffic backs up person who made made a right its not blocking an intersection and will continue flowing.

There some fun cloverleafs on business 40 in Winston Salem and buisness 85 after High Point you should expierence.
Once you circle the clover leaf there is no on ramp. Its puts you straight on the highway.
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:21 AM
 
Location: West Raleigh
1,037 posts, read 1,373,138 times
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While I see your point (thanks for the pic, that really helped!) the key to this whole problem is where you say, "...left turns get backed up and block the intersection waiting at the yield sign." In NC you are never supposed to enter an intersection unless you can clear it and blocking an intersection is illegal.

There are a few cities in NC that have an abundance of signs reminding drivers of this at intersections (I'm looking at you, Asheville) because drivers tend to forget and some intersections are worse for this than others, but even without the signage, the law still stands.

Therefore, the car waiting to make a left turn should see that there are already 4 or 5 cars waiting at the yield sign in the cloverleaf and not proceed to make their turn until there is space available behind the yield sign, regardless of if they have a green arrow/orb. Yeah, it will probably not make the people behind you happy and if you do block the intersection I dunno if you'll get a ticket (probably not...) but that's how it's supposed to go.

Also, I assume that somewhere to the left of this intersection (out of the picture) is some sort of signalized intersection that the right-turn drivers had to pass through before they arrive at this spot - probably for traffic heaing south on the interstate. So, if you did make it so the right turn had to yield to the left, the right turning traffic could back up and block not only people from making a right turn to go south but those that are coming west on the street trying to turn left to go south on the interstate. I hope this last part makes sense...if not, I'll grab the pic and try to make a nice diagram...

I'll also add that the last part there is considered worse to what's supposed to happen, which is that the "back up" occurs to the east of the person indicated in the pic that is the "red line". If the back up occurs there (with no one blocking the intersection...yeah perfect world, I know) no one's access/travel path to the interstate is hampered by the backup but if it were reversed (see previous paragraph) you'd have a back up that would prevent access. Ugh, that's a terrible explanation. Maybe I'll revise this after some coffee...
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:05 PM
 
Location: rural North Carolina
272 posts, read 782,667 times
Reputation: 336
FWIW I received this information from NCDot which makes complete sense. In the picture the population center is on the left, with a much less dense area to the right.

Quote:
The situation that you described is a scenario where a left turning vehicle entering the interstate must yield to a right turning vehicle entering the interstate. This situation may occur at interchanges such as the one you described, as well as single point diamond interchanges.

We will typically put the yield sign on the lower volume move. In the example, you stated that the left turn traffic likely has or had the lower traffic volume and would rarely queue into the intersection.

As you know, traffic patterns do change over time. If you are aware of a location where the left turn does back into the intersection, please let us know so we can review the operation.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Inactive Account
1,508 posts, read 2,959,114 times
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That answer is not what I expected, but it makes sense if you assume the exiting traffic on the curl is travelling faster than the traffic turning left into the ramp. (I was going by instinct that the "straight" traffic would have the right of way). In any case these ramps need to be clearly signed where they exist.
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