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Old 06-14-2012, 02:05 PM
NDL
 
Location: The CLT area
4,059 posts, read 4,837,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arbyunc View Post
^ I still don't get it. What interest groups are you talking about, and what would be their goals in targeting gays? And are you suggesting that these groups are a good thing for gays or not?
Here's how I see it:

There is a culture war going on, with extreme fringe groups vying for power. On one side you have the Church, which is being exploited and manipulated by (and vice versa) interest groups, the GOP, and the military security complex. On the other side, you have post modernists, people in academia, and major corporations. Both fringe groups are using their interests to reform and remold society, as they see fit.

The objective for both groups, is to win. The means through which winning becomes possible, comes through the manipulation and exploitation of voting blocs.

Again, perhaps it's because I live just outside of New York City, that I see things through a certain lens, and vice versa.

Agree or not, I think we can agree to the point that it's a race to the bottom.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:09 PM
NDL
 
Location: The CLT area
4,059 posts, read 4,837,507 times
Reputation: 2715
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Not really. . .It seems to have turned into varients of the same theme pretty much all over.
I agree to a degree.

While the words "dirty liberal" are peppered throughout New York GOP literature , they really don't talk about God, nor do they do anything to feed local religious groups.

Does anyone know if Nader is running this year ?
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,806 posts, read 32,223,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL View Post
I agree to a degree.

While the words "dirty liberal" are peppered throughout New York GOP literature , they really don't talk about God, nor do they do anything to feed local religious groups.

Does anyone know if Nader is running this year ?
That must be specific to your area, because they've been working the God angle in South Jersey for years. Really, I see such a small difference from South Jersey to here, & I'm 30 miles out from Charlotte.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
4,895 posts, read 4,787,539 times
Reputation: 4140
Illinois state attorney will argue in court that Illinois is violating the state constitution by banning gay marriage. Meanwhile the opposition responded with this argument;

Quote:

Updated: June 14, 2012 2:34PM


Cook County State’s Attorney Anita Alvarez plans to argue in court Thursday afternoon that Illinois is violating the state constitution by banning gay marriage.


.....


Peter Breen, executive director and legal counsel of the Thomas More Society, which supports the ban, criticized the planned filing by Alvarez.


“We are disappointed in the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office for not defending this valid law, passed with broad bipartisan support in the General Assembly,” he said in a statement.


“...Today’s announcement by State’s Attorney Anita Alvarez makes it clear that this lawsuit was an ‘inside job’ from the beginning, a crass political move to force same sex marriage on all Illinoisans without providing the residents of the other 101 counties an opportunity to be heard.”




Anita Alvarez: Illinois
That is the same hypocrisy that the NC GOP uses... What does it mean to have "same sex marriage forced on" someone? Does that mean people will be forced to be married to a lesbian? Does this mean we have to be gay? Does that mean my wife will divorce me for another woman?

How is "forcing" same sex marriage any different from "forcing" opposite sex marriage? I don't see homosexuals passing amendments about straight marriage...The hypocrisy just kills me and I really wonder how in the world can people be so stupid and blind....
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:58 PM
 
2,669 posts, read 6,813,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL View Post
Here's how I see it:

There is a culture war going on, with extreme fringe groups vying for power. On one side you have the Church, which is being exploited and manipulated by (and vice versa) interest groups, the GOP, and the military security complex. On the other side, you have post modernists, people in academia, and major corporations. Both fringe groups are using their interests to reform and remold society, as they see fit.

The objective for both groups, is to win. The means through which winning becomes possible, comes through the manipulation and exploitation of voting blocs.

Again, perhaps it's because I live just outside of New York City, that I see things through a certain lens, and vice versa.

Agree or not, I think we can agree to the point that it's a race to the bottom.
Okay, but I don't think I'd consider the GOP, the military, and major corporations to be fringe groups. I can see that fringe groups may be trying to increase their influence in these entities, though. Certainly the GOP, for example, is being influenced by the tea partiers and religious extremists. But regarding corporations, I think it's far more common for particular companies and/or industries to influence things with their money and power. That's pretty much the way it works these days, and it won't get any better anytime soon since the Supreme Court has given corporations the green light to buy influence through unlimited campaign contributions.

I dunno, maybe we're saying the same thing here. I still don't see what this has to do with gays trying to gain equal rights.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:42 PM
 
12,574 posts, read 14,853,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
When I said drinking, I mean throwing quite a few back... Not a casual glass. I can't imagine people at a sports restaurant "casually" drinking wine....

And the problem with people thinking only about guns and bible is that it distracts from real issues such as the economy, infrastructure, educations, jobs, commerce, wages, etc. instead people care about nonsense of whether joe and curly are a couple and putting all your efforts into putting bans on joe and curly having tax breaks.... I think that is rediculous.
Not a wine drinker personally, but wine lists are popping up everywhere.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:07 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
13,673 posts, read 22,375,189 times
Reputation: 13976
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL View Post
Here's how I see it:

There is a culture war going on, with extreme fringe groups vying for power. On one side you have the Church, which is being exploited and manipulated by (and vice versa) interest groups, the GOP, and the military security complex. On the other side, you have post modernists, people in academia, and major corporations. Both fringe groups are using their interests to reform and remold society, as they see fit.

The objective for both groups, is to win. The means through which winning becomes possible, comes through the manipulation and exploitation of voting blocs.

Again, perhaps it's because I live just outside of New York City, that I see things through a certain lens, and vice versa.

Agree or not, I think we can agree to the point that it's a race to the bottom.
Here's the way I see it. Corporations and the ultra wealthy that have traditionally supported a fiscally conservative agenda needed an "ace in the hole" to maintain power since their interests aren't necessarily in the best interest of the majority of Americans. That "ace in the hole" was found with the social christian conservatives. Keep them happy and you'll always start elections with a 30 point +/- baseline. In many cases, that base is up to 40% of the electorate or more. Then, you just have to fill in the rest with the wealthy & corporate types that really only care about keeping more of their money. The problem is that corporations have figured out that being socially progressive is good for business because it attracts and retains the best and brightest minds and positions themselves better in the marketplace.
All this worked just fine until the social conservatives grabbed power in the Republican Party and started focusing more and more on THEIR issues. So, corporate America is stuck between the religious right on the one hand and the generally progressing young Americans who make up the future of their workforces. Until corporations start to suffer from their political decisions, they'll continue to stay in bed with social conservatives. But, if that scale tips, the religious right will be tossed from the conversation like an old dish rag. We'll then see a third party emerge to the right of Republicans and America will be forced to have political coalition governments like many other countries.
As for the Democrats, I think they are more in step with the general culture of the country and its future but are too milquetoast and chicken to typically take a stand for fear of being buried by corporate money and christian conservatives who pull out scare tactics quicker than you can say "boo". The sad reality is that what really influences politics now has been boiled down to corporate money and giant religiously based institutions and their political activism. There's practically NO effective mechanism for political discourse from the left anymore. They just aren't large enough or have enough financial resources to battle the right. And, given that the Democrats have been so milquetoast in the past, their voters feel defeated and demoralized.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:41 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
32,732 posts, read 76,742,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDL View Post
There is a culture war going on, with (the leadership of) extreme fringe groups vying for (more) power (than the merits of their arguments or positions should afford them).
The people, the hoi polloi, as they always have been and as they always will be...
are just along for the ride and hoping it won't hurt too much.

The problem is that some of these societal changes these leaders are attempting to harness and control and flail mightily to run in front of in hopes of being seen as somehow in charge of anything.... some are actually planned by and foisted on the public by interest groups and some are just the natural progression and evolution of society.

Right or wrong, good or bad, like 'em or not... the changes coming from this natural progression are the ones which will last as they build on the natural progression from past changes and societal growth. The ones attempting to turn back the clock to some earlier world view will be run over by the herd.

A favorite quote of mine describes the fallout from this conflict:
Quote:
Today we are living in an intellectual and technological paradise and a moral and social nightmare because the intellectual level of evolution, in its struggle to become free of the social level, has ignored the social level's role in keeping the biological level under control.
Read that a couple of times.

There *is* a role for the social conservatives in our world but it isn't the role their leaders want to have or that their followers have been lead to believe they have some sort of superiority about.

They run up against this reality constantly and it hurts.
otoh... the intellectuals have over reached too and when they run up against their own reality...
and that hurts just as much. Both sides need to back away from the vitriol and sanctimonious.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
4,895 posts, read 4,787,539 times
Reputation: 4140
Quote:
Originally Posted by WFW&P View Post
Not a wine drinker personally, but wine lists are popping up everywhere.

The majority of people are not casually drinking wine at Hooters and countless other places. I'm being realistic. I'm sure there are also people who smoke weed for medical reasons; however, I highly doubt that smoking weed is the reason most weed smokers in Charlotte are smoking weed...

Just as I'm sure most people in NC drinking alcohol in restaraunts are not casually sipping wine....
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