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I would interpret what Tarheel said... as HIS interpretation of someone elses comments.
and I would interpret the "I don't care" - saying he doesn't care about statistics, from my understanding of what he wrote, as statistics are often skewed.
I don't think he ever said he didn't care about unfairness - just that he thinks people play the cards too often, and he wants black, white, brown, green, orange, blue et al people who are criminals to be treated like criminals - and base their sentencing on facts and evidence and not statistics OR color of someones skin.
But that is just how I read the thread
I can't speak for netbrad and others, but that is a good explanation of my feelings. I don't feel bad for blacks put to death. They won't get a lick of sympathy from me. However, I realize there are flaws in the legal and judicial system. It shows when a man can commit such a heinous crime and is able to once again freely roam the Earth. However, I don't chalk that up to racism. I chalk it up to a flawed system. One that clearly needs to be fixed. I just get sick of hearing about racism, when I don't this is a product of it. Always remember the three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Folks, you can't get from A to C without going through B. The studies clearly indicate racial bias. This isn't some unfounded case of "playing the race card"; there is significant evidence that race plays a big role. But don't take my word for it...read the underlying studies for yourself. So if you really are only interested in making sure people pay for their crimes, then you should be really concerned about this because it means there are white people who should have received the death sentence and didn't. Or conversely there are non-whites who shouldn't have received it and did. Either way, your stated goal of basing the sentence on facts and evidence is not being met!
So, sonofdixie, you seriously don't feel bad for a black person who is put to death, when the white person isn't put to death in the same circumstances? If so, there is a word for that, and I don't need to repeat it.
Folks, you can't get from A to C without going through B. The studies clearly indicate racial bias. This isn't some unfounded case of "playing the race card"; there is significant evidence that race plays a big role. But don't take my word for it...read the underlying studies for yourself. So if you really are only interested in making sure people pay for their crimes, then you should be really concerned about this because it means there are white people who should have received the death sentence and didn't. Or conversely there are non-whites who shouldn't have received it and did. Either way, your stated goal of basing the sentence on facts and evidence is not being met!
So, sonofdixie, you seriously don't feel bad for a black person who is put to death, when the white person isn't put to death in the same circumstances? If so, there is a word for that, and I don't need to repeat it.
I personally think that people need to be sentenced according to their crime - and of course it is wrong for it to be based off of anything BUT the facts of each individual case.
If, in fact, a black and white man both committed the same EXACT crime in every way, AND had a trial with the EXACT same judge, in the EXACT same system, and got different sentencing - absolutely that is wrong and should not be allowed.
But if there are other factors in each of these cases - such as who the judge is (which means one judge might consider the crime worthy of death penalty, but the other judge considers it worth of life in prison, that VERY well may be, and often is just a difference of opinion and not based on race) - or the details AND evidence of the crime are differing in the situations - etc etc you get my drift, then we need to be trusting our system to do its job.
And if we ever do find cases in which there is a particular judge who has a trend that is racist - clearly that person shouldn't be in that position any longer.
and I would interpret the "I don't care" - saying he doesn't care about statistics, from my understanding of what he wrote, as statistics are often skewed. I don't think he ever said he didn't care about unfairness - just that he thinks people play the cards too often, and he wants black, white, brown, green, orange, blue et al people who are criminals to be treated like criminals - and base their sentencing on facts and evidence and not statistics OR color of someones skin.
Exactly.
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If there are two cases that are exactly the same--a person with no prior criminal history robs a bank and kills two people for no reason other than they happened to be standing nearby--should they get the same sentence?
It depends on the evidence. No two crimes are exactly the same.
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But the studies show that's not always the case, and if you're black you are 3 times more likely to get a death sentence. Do you agree that's wrong?
If the evidence of the crime and other factors support getting the death penalty, then no, it is not wrong.
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If I've somehow misinterpreted your views on this, I do sincerely apologize for assuming you are racist. But anyone who says it's okay to pursue different sentences based on race is, by definition, racist.
You have misinterpreted my views and have decided that anyone who is against this law is a racist. Why would you even make such an assumption to begin with? Finally, I never said it was okay to pursue different sentences based on race.
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The studies clearly indicate racial bias.
And who vetted those studies? Who analyzed the raw data? What other factors besides race were considered? What about evidence, heinousness of the crime, skills of the prosecution and defense attorneys, reliability of witnesses, etc.?
In my opinion the act was a "feel good" law, nothing more, and I'm not a racist for saying so. It is shameful that you consider people you've never met to be racists just because they disagree with you.
Folks, you can't get from A to C without going through B. The studies clearly indicate racial bias. This isn't some unfounded case of "playing the race card"; there is significant evidence that race plays a big role. But don't take my word for it...read the underlying studies for yourself. So if you really are only interested in making sure people pay for their crimes, then you should be really concerned about this because it means there are white people who should have received the death sentence and didn't. Or conversely there are non-whites who shouldn't have received it and did. Either way, your stated goal of basing the sentence on facts and evidence is not being met!
So, sonofdixie, you seriously don't feel bad for a black person who is put to death, when the white person isn't put to death in the same circumstances? If so, there is a word for that, and I don't need to repeat it.
Nope, I still don't feel bad for any race put to death, as long as they are guilty of the crime. I don't care about one single black, white, or purple person on death row. They deserve to be there. You just keep trying to twist my words. I don't feel bad for the black being put to death. I only want the white to be put to death also.
How that man was released after 23 years is beyond me. It's disgusting, but it has nothing to do with the race of the jury. I can't comprehend how he got out so easily, but I know that anyone having anything to do with his freedom should be ashamed of themselves, as well as unmemployed. He obviously should have been sentenced to death for his crimes. You do realize the jury found him to be guilty, right? They had no control over the judge's sentencing. They had no control over him being allowed to walk after 23 years. Yet somehow, you blame these [i]racist jurors[i] for allowing him to walk free without even serving half of his time. Look, I won't deny the system needs to be fixed, but I'm not going to blame it on racism. There needs to be harsher punishments for everyone. That's the only way we're ever going to deter crime.
It's strange to think you, and others, believe that this cold-blooded murderer should be taken off of death row. HE SHOT A MAN IN THE FACE WITH A SHOTGUN! There is honestly something wrong with you, and anyone else, who was happy with this verdict. Y'all disgust me. Oh, and I'm sure Erik Tornblom's family feels as if justice was served.
Hey netbrad, I'm glad to hear you aren't a racist, and I apologize for making that assumption based on your earlier comments. Now that we have that out of the way, please take a look at these links:
A couple of examples: Robert Bacon was sentenced to death by an all-white jury in Onslow County in 1991. Not long before Bacon was to be executed, a woman who sat on his jury came forward and revealed that the jury made derogatory racial comments during deliberations and sentenced him to death in large part because of their racist views. In his sentencing hearing, jurors held it against Bacon that he was romantically involved with a white woman. In his trial, jurors made racist jokes. Bacon was granted clemency days before his scheduled execution in 2001.
Kenneth Rouse is an African-American man who was sentenced to death in Randolph County by an all-white jury. One member of the jury was an admitted racist and believes that “black men rape white women so they can brag to their friends.” The juror admitted in a sworn affidavit that “blacks do not care about living as much as whites do.” The juror routinely referred to African-Americans as “n------s,” and stated that “bigotry” was influential in his decision to vote for death. The juror admitted that he lied in order to sit on the jury. Kenneth Rouse is still on death row.
From the NC Law Review study: The data presented in this Article show that in the twenty-eight year period from 1980 to 2007, the race of the victim in homicide cases is a strong predictor of who is sentenced to death in North Carolina. Even after statistically controlling for the level of Additional Factors in the case, the victim’s race remains a powerful predictor of who is and who is not sentenced to death.
From the 2001 UNC death penalty study: Our principal finding to date is that racial disparities continue to plague North Carolina’s capital punishment system in the 1990s—especially discrimination against defendants (of whatever race) whose murder victims are white. This finding is confirmed by numerous individual analyses we have conducted, employing different methods, and looking at various decision points throughout the capital charging and sentencing system.
Race matters in the initial decision whether to charge a defendant with first degree murder, second degree murder, or manslaughter; it matters in the decision whether to go forward to trial; it matters in the decision whether to seek a death sentence; it matters in the jury’s life-or-death decision at the penalty phase of a capital trial.
From the Michigan State University Law School study: We have documented the [juror] strike decisions and race for more than 7,400 potential capital jurors in 173 cases from 1990 to 2010. In every analysis that we performed, race was a significant factor in prosecutorial decisions to exercise peremptory challenges in jury selection in these capital proceedings. Regardless of how one looks at the data, a robust and substantial disparity in the exercise of prosecutorial strikes against black venire members compared to others persists.
And by the way, your questions about the studies (e.g., who vetted them, consideration of other factors, etc.) are easily answered if you take the time to read them. Once you've done that, I'd like to hear your opinion as to why these studies aren't valid, and why you think racism plays no role in the trial and sentencing process in North Carolina. Since you aren't a racist, surely you must have solid, logical reasoning for disagreeing with the findings. Thanks in advance.
It's strange to think you, and others, believe that this cold-blooded murderer should be taken off of death row. HE SHOT A MAN IN THE FACE WITH A SHOTGUN! There is honestly something wrong with you, and anyone else, who was happy with this verdict. Y'all disgust me. Oh, and I'm sure Erik Tornblom's family feels as if justice was served.
SonofDixie, I never said any of these criminals should be taken off death row. As I clearly said earlier, I'm simply saying the death penalty is being applied unfairly in NC based on race. Actually I'm really not the one saying that--the many scholars who have researched it are, and also the members of the legislature who initially voted to approve the RJA. Also as I said earlier, the solution is to apply sentencing fairly--that means sentencing based on the facts of the case and not on race. If that means more whites are sentenced to death, and no blacks have their sentences reduced, that would be fair in my view. So maybe we should go back and review the cases of whites, ask why they weren't sentenced to death, and impose a death sentence where there's no good justification for anything less. I'd be fine with that.
SonofDixie, I never said any of these criminals should be taken off death row. As I clearly said earlier, I'm simply saying the death penalty is being applied unfairly in NC based on race. Actually I'm really not the one saying that--the many scholars who have researched it are, and also the members of the legislature who initially voted to approve the RJA. Also as I said earlier, the solution is to apply sentencing fairly--that means sentencing based on the facts of the case and not on race. If that means more whites are sentenced to death, and no blacks have their sentences reduced, that would be fair in my view. So maybe we should go back and review the cases of whites, ask why they weren't sentenced to death, and impose a death sentence where there's no good justification for anything less. I'd be fine with that.
Sir, we are 110% in agreement here. I would be perfectly happy with that. I'd much rather see cases reviewed in this manner.
Now that we have that out of the way, please take a look at these links:
You've linked to an organization whose sole purpose is to abolish the death penalty in NC so they are biased against it to begin with. That being said, the Robert Bacon example is how things are supposed to work, i.e. showing actual evidence of racism instead of making assumptions based on statistical analysis. Unfortunately the idiocy of the jury allowed a lesser punishment for a murderer.
Regarding Kenneth Rouse, if you take away the statement by the idiot juror, was the crime still heinous enough to warrant the death penalty? From what I've read it was (robbery, attempted rape, then murder).
Regarding your studies, since the Michigan study started all of this I read that one first. It blatantly states in one of their footnotes that they did not have access to voir dire transcripts. Nor could I find any evidence they interviewed any of the previous jurors. Their analysis is based solely on the race of the jury and what types of answers would exclude jurors. Finally, they are not verifying the race information on the jury members. Instead, as long as they can find similar partial pieces of information from sources, that is considered a "match". There is no verification the juror's race is accurate.
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Since you aren't a racist, surely you must have solid, logical reasoning for disagreeing with the findings. Thanks in advance.
Ah, the old "do you still beat your wife" question. There is no getting through to you and I don't owe you any answers. I have solid, logical reasoning for disagreeing with the Racial Justice Act, namely that it will clog the court system for decades based on a numbers game instead of actual, fact-based evidence.
I only assuming here that one gets on death row for murder. why continue to waste tax dollars housing murderers? Race has nothing to do with the crime commited unless or course, it is a way to get out of jail. Hang em' High!
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