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Well, the key phrase here is "Decades ago". Bear in mind that Confederate Flags weren't nearly as "horrific" until general sensitivity to social minorities (i.e. "political correctness") evolved in the 80s or so. When I was growing up, a Confederate Flag simply stood for "Southern Pride" in one's heritage, the same way New Englanders or Midwesterners or Californians or [group] have pride in their heritage. Unfortunately, no universal symbol of "Pride in the rich Southern culture" has evolved other than the (very outdated) Confederate flag, which is no longer used in that context, but "decades ago", it might have been a symbol of "I am from the South and I love my heritage" which is NOT the same as saying "I believe the South should have won the war" or "I support slavery" etc.!! That's a very commono misconception of the flag as it was used years ago. (Now is a different story, since many "white Power" groups have adopted the Stars and Bars as their own symbol, leaving us "proud of Southern heritage and culture" folks with no symbol we can use to represent our own background). So unless you have other reasons to believe that your cousin was a racist/bigot, I cut her some slack (unless she is STILL displaying it!). When I was growing up in Raleigh in the 1970s, about half the kids were Southern and about half Northern. It was very commoon to play "Civil War" as a backyard game, the same way you'd play "Cowboys and Indians" or "Good guys and bad guys" etc. Nobody actually thought of it in any historical context, it was just a game that happened to divide by heritage, and nobody actually espoused 1860s "Union" or "Confederate" values. It was simply friendly rivalry, like Duke fans vs Carolina fans, etc.
I don't want to get into a debate about this here but the Confederate Flag was used by the KKK and other white supremacist groups as soon as the Civil War was over. And it was certainly used to intimidate black students and black activists during the Civil Rights movements in the 1950s and 1960s.
You're describing a really whitewashed version of Civil War memory. I guess there was a lot of cognitive dissonance going on among Southern kids in the 70s and 80s. I certainly saw some of it in the 90s, with kids blaring rap music from their expensive pickup trucks that had confederate memorabilia. Like you said, I can cut them some slack if they were just being influenced by their parents and they grew out of it. But anyone over the age of 20 who displays Confederate memorabilia anywhere other than in a museum is not a person I want to know.
I don't want to get into a debate about this here but the Confederate Flag was used by the KKK and other white supremacist groups as soon as the Civil War was over. And it was certainly used to intimidate black students and black activists during the Civil Rights movements in the 1950s and 1960s.
You're describing a really whitewashed version of Civil War memory. I guess there was a lot of cognitive dissonance going on among Southern kids in the 70s and 80s. I certainly saw some of it in the 90s, with kids blaring rap music from their expensive pickup trucks that had confederate memorabilia. Like you said, I can cut them some slack if they were just being influenced by their parents and they grew out of it. But anyone over the age of 20 who displays Confederate memorabilia anywhere other than in a museum is not a person I want to know.
You really felt the need to respond to a post that was almost 3 years old? Just so you know, the KKK also uses the Christian flag and the U.S. flag. The Stars and Stripes, not the Confederate flag, flew over every single ship that carried slaves to our country. Yet, somehow you don't hear folks complaining about our nation's flag. As long as you live in Dixie, you're going to see the Confederate flag flying. It's never going to die. If you don't like it, well, that's too bad.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the First National Flag? It's the real "Stars and Bars", yet nobody ever fusses about it. Most people do not even recognize it. Would you have a problem with it being flown outside of a museum setting? It is, after all, still flown in Texas, as one of the six flags over Texas.
You really felt the need to respond to a post that was almost 3 years old? Just so you know, the KKK also uses the Christian flag and the U.S. flag. The Stars and Stripes, not the Confederate flag, flew over every single ship that carried slaves to our country. Yet, somehow you don't hear folks complaining about our nation's flag. As long as you live in Dixie, you're going to see the Confederate flag flying. It's never going to die. If you don't like it, well, that's too bad.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the First National Flag? It's the real "Stars and Bars", yet nobody ever fusses about it. Most people do not even recognize it. Would you have a problem with it being flown outside of a museum setting? It is, after all, still flown in Texas, as one of the six flags over Texas.
The stars and bars are associated with the KKK's most violent acts. The Christian Flag (I didn't even realize that existed) seems a bit hypocritical since they were rabidly anti-Catholic as well. The US flag is the US flag, we can't prevent them from using it.
Unfortunately, the Southern slave power did all it could to prevent gradual emancipation as many of our New England forefathers wanted. Though the transatlantic slave trade ended in 1808, as codified in the Constitution. So, at its very founding, a good portion of the United States and its leaders were of the mind that slavery was a wrong that needed to be confronted.
Hopefully we will see the stars and bars less and less. I notice it a lot less than since the 90s and a lot less in the urban areas and in the better areas of the state. Certainly no professional person could get away with flying it in most of our cities now.
The first national flag is an interesting case. On the one hand, it's the original symbol of treason; on the other hand it is not as associated with racial violence as the stars and bars. The six flags of Texas have historical significance and are flown alongside other nations' flags as a historical statement. Contrasted with South Carolina's blatant middle finger to 35% of its population on the statehouse grounds, I don't have an issue with it.
The stars and bars are associated with the KKK's most violent acts. The Christian Flag (I didn't even realize that existed) seems a bit hypocritical since they were rabidly anti-Catholic as well. The US flag is the US flag, we can't prevent them from using it.
Unfortunately, the Southern slave power did all it could to prevent gradual emancipation as many of our New England forefathers wanted. Though the transatlantic slave trade ended in 1808, as codified in the Constitution. So, at its very founding, a good portion of the United States and its leaders were of the mind that slavery was a wrong that needed to be confronted.
Hopefully we will see the stars and bars less and less. I notice it a lot less than since the 90s and a lot less in the urban areas and in the better areas of the state. Certainly no professional person could get away with flying it in most of our cities now.
The first national flag is an interesting case. On the one hand, it's the original symbol of treason; on the other hand it is not as associated with racial violence as the stars and bars. The six flags of Texas have historical significance and are flown alongside other nations' flags as a historical statement. Contrasted with South Carolina's blatant middle finger to 35% of its population on the statehouse grounds, I don't have an issue with it.
Interesting. Texas flies a Confederate flag and it's okay because it's making a "historical statement." South Carolina flies a different Confederate flag and it's a "blatant middle finger to 35% of it's population." Both flags, in regards to their origins, represent the exact same thing. I realize there are (unjust) negative connotations that go along with the Battle flag. So, let me ask, would you be okay with the SC government flying the First National Confederate flag?
Secondly, you referred to the Battle Flag as the "Stars and Bars." Actually, a lot of people incorrectly label the Battle Flag as the Stars and Bars. Just so you know, the Stars and Bars actually refers to the First National Flag. Hence the three horizontal bars. The Battle Flag is actually molded after St. Andrews' Cross.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Really, that. It's a dying issue. In 20-30 years nobody except people out in the far reaches of the sticks will even remember what the rebel flag is. There was an attempt by the last generation to grow up with the Great Men and Lost Cause propaganda to add a veneer of respectability to the issue which even their own grandparents would laugh at. Once they're gone, it's over.
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Originally Posted by coped
I don't want to get into a debate about this here but the Confederate Flag was used by the KKK and other white supremacist groups as soon as the Civil War was over.
Actually the use of the CSN battle flag as a catchall standard for "the South" didn't happen until after Reconstruction, alongside the development of the Lost Cause myth, and other ephemera of what we consider today to be part and parcel of the South. Which on a timeline places it a full generation after the end of the Civil War. Shoot, the Sons of Confederate Veterans wasn't created until the late 1890s, which should've required them to be called the Grandsons of Confederate Veterans.
Last edited by box_of_zip_disks; 07-27-2012 at 03:41 PM..
I don't want to get into a debate about this here but the Confederate Flag was used by the KKK an
Aaand that's where I stopped reading your race-bait thread.
It's a flag with history and whether or not you like it, history must always be respected. I know there are many who believe it should be removed from society but removing and ignoring history makes you far more likely to repeat it.
Whether it is a symbol of oppression or freedom to you, it's an important symbol.
I don't want to get into a debate about this here but the Confederate Flag was used by the KKK and other white supremacist groups as soon as the Civil War was over. And it was certainly used to intimidate black students and black activists during the Civil Rights movements in the 1950s and 1960s.
No, it wasn't. It was really not up until the Civil Rights era of the 60's that the Confederate Battle Flag (not to be confused with the Stars and Bars) was ever used by the KKK, or white supremacy. When used by the average Southerner, it was more a "Dont Tread on Me" type thing than used to try and intimidate blacks. It was really saying to the federal government, get out of our business.
There was MUCH more resistance to Civil rights legislation up there, anyway. What a bunch of hypocrites those yankees were! Hell, even Andrew Young once said he was NEVER so scared for his physical safety in the South as in the North. And King himself once said something like "If you want to teach a white Southerner how to hate? Send him to Chicago..."
Anyway, during the "hey-day" of the KKK? It was the AMERICAN flag that was their standard.
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You're describing a really whitewashed version of Civil War memory.and they grew out of it.
No, you are describing the "winners version" and filled with one that later used "slavery" as the excuse (later) to justify an invasion of the South...a people who had done them no wrong to begin with.
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But anyone over the age of 20 who displays Confederate memorabilia anywhere other than in a museum is not a person I want to know.
So who cares in the least whether you want to know them or not? Ever think that works both ways?
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