Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
...persons per square mile in the overall city limits. Charlotte's is simply lower and therefore more sprawled than other cities.
I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily believe that is the most acurate depiction of sprawl. One could also look at Urban area and see that Charlotte is larger than Raleigh. You could also look at the MSA density and see if there is a difference. Once again, I am not denying that Charlotte isn't more sprawled. IMO I don't think it is because I see more of a cohesion in Charlotte than the polycentric Triangle. But that is my opinion.
I just sometimes wonder about this "sprawl" that people talk about. I know that it is most often used for sunbelt cities and used in a negative sense. But if a city sprawls in urbanity, NYC MSA for example, isn't that sprawl as well?
I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily believe that is the most acurate depiction of sprawl. One could also look at Urban area and see that Charlotte is larger than Raleigh. You could also look at the MSA density and see if there is a difference. Once again, I am not denying that Charlotte isn't more sprawled. IMO I don't think it is because I see more of a cohesion in Charlotte than the polycentric Triangle. But that is my opinion.
I just sometimes wonder about this "sprawl" that people talk about. I know that it is most often used for sunbelt cities and used in a negative sense. But if a city sprawls in urbanity, NYC MSA for example, isn't that sprawl as well?
I have seen several several evironmental groups on the web that have actually listed which cities/metros were the most sprawled. If I remember correctly from one of them, it listed Nashville as the most sprawled along with several other "new" sunbelt cities. In that case, the focus was on how much land was used to support one's population. I tend to agree with that methodology.
As for the Triangle, it is polycentric but it also houses some of the state's highest municipal densities. In a previous thread, I actually linked the report of those densities. (let me see if I can find it and link below) Surprisingly, Durham has one of the lowest densities in the Triangle: counter to many's perception. Both Raleigh's and Cary's densities are significantly higher. If I remember correctly, Carrboro was the most densely populated municipality in the state.
In the end, all NC cities need to do a better job at increasing their municipal densities. IMO, there's no reason why Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, etc. shouldn't all set the bar at 4000 people per square mile. As of now, none of them are even 3000 per square mile. North Carolina Municipal Population Estimates | NC | OSBM
I have seen several several evironmental groups on the web that have actually listed which cities/metros were the most sprawled. If I remember correctly from one of them, it listed Nashville as the most sprawled along with several other "new" sunbelt cities. In that case, the focus was on how much land was used to support one's population. I tend to agree with that methodology.
As for the Triangle, it is polycentric but it also houses some of the state's highest municipal densities. In a previous thread, I actually linked the report of those densities. (let me see if I can find it and link below) Surprisingly, Durham has one of the lowest densities in the Triangle: counter to many's perception. Both Raleigh's and Cary's densities are significantly higher. If I remember correctly, Carrboro was the most densely populated municipality in the state.
In the end, all NC cities need to do a better job at increasing their municipal densities. IMO, there's no reason why Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, etc. shouldn't all set the bar at 4000 people per square mile. As of now, none of them are even 3000 per square mile. North Carolina Municipal Population Estimates | NC | OSBM
This is really good information. It does appear that the Triangle density, specifically Raleigh-Cary MSA appears more dense than Charlotte. I wonder, how does this data look from an MSA standpoint. Thanks for showing facts to back up your assertion. I also agree with your definition of sprawl. But even in that, if one geograpic area likes more land for yard purposes is that bad? But at the same time I do think denser development is better for the environment.
This is really good information. It does appear that the Triangle density, specifically Raleigh-Cary MSA appears more dense than Charlotte. I wonder, how does this data look from an MSA standpoint. Thanks for showing facts to back up your assertion. I also agree with your definition of sprawl. But even in that, if one geograpic area likes more land for yard purposes is that bad? But at the same time I do think denser development is better for the environment.
I have spent some time wondering why Raleigh and Cary are more dense within their municipal limits. I have some theories why...
The way subdivisions have been developed across the state has changed to include much smaller lot sizes. Since Raleigh/Cary's growth has been more recent, it has a larger percentage of more densely populated single family neighborhoods. Also, Raleigh has a greater percentage of college students who almost always live in some sort of multi-family arrangement. I also think that Raleigh being hemmed in on many sides by separate municipal suburbs plays a part in "limiting" sprawl of its city limits. Raleigh touches Cary, Morrisville, Knightdale, Wake Forest and Garner on its borders with other separate municipalities nearby: Holly Springs, Apex, Rolesville.
Likewise, Cary is arguably one of the "newest" cities in NC with most of its population and development being post 1980. This maps to the more densely developed neighborhood models that occured nationally in the same time period. Additionally, since Cary is mostly a bedroom community, more of its land is dedicated to supporting population.
I don't know the exact amount of land that Raleigh can possibly annex but I do know that there's no way it will be able to approach the physical size of Charlotte's current limits. Raleigh's only about half the physical size of Charlotte and there's just too many municipalities in its way. So, in order for Raleigh alone to grow to the estimated 600,000 by 2025-30, it's going to have to find ways to make the city more dense. I am anxious to see this happen because I'd rather have a denser 600,000 city than a sprawled million + city.
I have spent some time wondering why Raleigh and Cary are more dense within their municipal limits. I have some theories why...
The way subdivisions have been developed across the state has changed to include much smaller lot sizes. Since Raleigh/Cary's growth has been more recent, it has a larger percentage of more densely populated single family neighborhoods. Also, Raleigh has a greater percentage of college students who almost always live in some sort of multi-family arrangement. I also think that Raleigh being hemmed in on many sides by separate municipal suburbs plays a part in "limiting" sprawl of its city limits. Raleigh touches Cary, Morrisville, Knightdale, Wake Forest and Garner on its borders with other separate municipalities nearby: Holly Springs, Apex, Rolesville.
Likewise, Cary is arguably one of the "newest" cities in NC with most of its population and development being post 1980. This maps to the more densely developed neighborhood models that occured nationally in the same time period. Additionally, since Cary is mostly a bedroom community, more of its land is dedicated to supporting population.
I don't know the exact amount of land that Raleigh can possibly annex but I do know that there's no way it will be able to approach the physical size of Charlotte's current limits. Raleigh's only about half the physical size of Charlotte and there's just too many municipalities in its way. So, in order for Raleigh alone to grow to the estimated 600,000 by 2025-30, it's going to have to find ways to make the city more dense. I am anxious to see this happen because I'd rather have a denser 600,000 city than a sprawled million + city.
I think your theories about the density of Raleigh. Interestingly enough, I wonder if this could be attributed to Raleigh's location on the East and Charlotte's location. I would like to compare the density of Charlotte, Hickory, and Asheville vs RTP, Fayettevillr, Wilmington. I wonder if the Western metros are less dense due to higher municipal city size cuz the cities are more spread out and east cities are more close.
I see Charlotte going in the direction of say Houston, big city population and more sprawled, whereas Raleigh might be a larger but smaller version of say San Francisco. just using these cities as examples to get my point across.
I hope for both cities sake that neither of them end up like Houston or San Francisco! I think a more reasonable comparison would be the Raleigh is more like Atlanta and Charlotte would be comparable to Nashville (I know, Charlotte is already bigger than Nashville just bear with me). Nashville has a huge city-limits (having merged with Davidson County to make them coterminous) with few "suburbs" and more "satellite" towns. Whereas Atlanta actually has a much smaller city-limits and population within its city limits; but vast amounts of surrounding patchworks of suburbs
I hope for both cities sake that neither of them end up like Houston or San Francisco! I think a more reasonable comparison would be the Raleigh is more like Atlanta and Charlotte would be comparable to Nashville (I know, Charlotte is already bigger than Nashville just bear with me). Nashville has a huge city-limits (having merged with Davidson County to make them coterminous) with few "suburbs" and more "satellite" towns. Whereas Atlanta actually has a much smaller city-limits and population within its city limits; but vast amounts of surrounding patchworks of suburbs
I see what you're saying. What I was getting at is that Houston is a large city with smaller suburbs but Houston dominate. Where as San Francisco is not as large as Houston and has bigger suburbs. San Fran also has way smaller city boundaries but is very dense. Houston has larger city boundaries but is less dense. You see what I was getting at.
I think your theories about the density of Raleigh. Interestingly enough, I wonder if this could be attributed to Raleigh's location on the East and Charlotte's location. I would like to compare the density of Charlotte, Hickory, and Asheville vs RTP, Fayettevillr, Wilmington. I wonder if the Western metros are less dense due to higher municipal city size cuz the cities are more spread out and east cities are more close.
I see Charlotte going in the direction of say Houston, big city population and more sprawled, whereas Raleigh might be a larger but smaller version of say San Francisco. just using these cities as examples to get my point across.
I see where you are going but I wouldn't use S.F. as the example for Raleigh's future. If I were using the Bay Area, I'd use San Jose. It's a denser (but still mainly suburban city) with lots of suburbs on its borders: Sunnyvale, Campbell, Cupertino, Los Gatos, Mountain View, Milpitas...
In a way, Miami is another example. It's not even 500,000 in the city limits but has 2 million people surrounding it in the MiamiDade County.
As for Charlotte, I can see your point. Its city limits is more bounded by Mecklenburg County than it is by other municipalities. But, then again, county lines haven't stopped Cary, Raleigh, Morrisville and Durham. Each of these municipalities have crossed one.
I think your theory of East vs. West in NC is interesting to consider. I'll have to geek out and look into it. I will say this though, the cities in the East are going to be typically older and that's usually a signal for expecting denser planning models for the original cities.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
