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OMG dude would you get off your high horse. Do you seriously think for a second that anyone outside of NC (maybe SC) cares about which city in NC is supreme? I've been to Charlotte several times. Other than the larger downtown area I did not notice any difference, except for the fact that the Triangle area has a much nicer business park (but who's ever heard of RTP anyway) and a more educated workforce.
You win Charlotte is bigger, we get it. Density wise however, it's no different than Raleigh or Greensboro.
Again, this thread is about North Carolina's twins. The Triad and Triangle.
FWIW, outside of downtown, there are SEVERAL differences. Carowinds and South Park are just a few of those differences.
Also, if Charlotte only had 141 sq/mi of land (like Raleigh) Charlotte would still have about 100,000 more people than Raleigh. At the core, Charlotte is denser. On paper, Charlotte is not denser because of the vast areas of low density development the city has annexed. The county stats tell the true story of density in NC's largest cities.
Mecklenburg county
900,000 people
526 sq/mi
1,711 density (people per sq/mi)
Wake county
875,000 people
836 sq/mi
1,047 density (people per sq/mi)
Guilford county
475,000 people
649 sq/mi
732 density (people per sq/mi)
Raleigh is MUCH closer to Greensboro than it is to Charlotte when it comes to look, feel, vibe, and density. The only thing Charlotte and Raleigh have in common is high growth.
However, most of Raleigh's growth is suburban. Charlotte's growth is focused around making the city more urban. Uptown Charlotte's zip code of 28202 has doubled in population in the last 5 years. None of Raleigh's urban zip codes has done that. However, there are plenty of suburban zip codes in and around Raleigh that has doubled in population over the last five years.
I fear that if Raleigh doesn't make urbanity its top priority, Raleigh will never reach its full potential as a REAL city. This is why I see Raleigh and Greensboro as twins. It is not meant to be a bash against Raleigh. I am just calling it as I see it.
Again, this thread is about North Carolina's twins. The Triad and Triangle.
FWIW, outside of downtown, there are SEVERAL differences. Carowinds and South Park are just a few of those differences.
Also, if Charlotte only had 141 sq/mi of land (like Raleigh) Charlotte would still have about 100,000 more people than Raleigh. At the core, Charlotte is denser. On paper, Charlotte is not denser because of the vast areas of low density development the city has annexed. The county stats tell the true story of density in NC's largest cities.
Mecklenburg county
900,000 people
526 sq/mi
1,711 density (people per sq/mi)
Wake county
875,000 people
836 sq/mi
1,047 density (people per sq/mi)
Guilford county
475,000 people
649 sq/mi
732 density (people per sq/mi)
Raleigh is MUCH closer to Greensboro than it is to Charlotte when it comes to look, feel, vibe, and density. The only thing Charlotte and Raleigh have in common is high growth.
However, most of Raleigh's growth is suburban. Charlotte's growth is focused around making the city more urban. Uptown Charlotte's zip code of 28202 has doubled in population in the last 5 years. None of Raleigh's urban zip codes has done that. However, there are plenty of suburban zip codes in and around Raleigh that has doubled in population over the last five years.
I fear that if Raleigh doesn't make urbanity its top priority, Raleigh will never reach its full potential as a REAL city. This is why I see Raleigh and Greensboro as twins. It is not meant to be a bash against Raleigh. I am just calling it as I see it.
Your information is so full of holes, I don't know where to start. Raleigh's Urban Area (the most accurate determination of a city's size) is almost the same size as Charlotte's (800,000+ vs 900,000+), wow big difference. Greensboro's UA is just a little over 400,000. Heck Winston-Salem's UA is slightly larger than Greensboro's. The city of Raleigh by itself is 400,000! The gap between Raleigh and Charlotte's Urban Area has narrowed tremendously since the 2000 census, mainly due to Raleigh's booming suburbs. Raleigh has the fastest growing UA in the United States!
One thing you are right about is the fact Charlotte is indeed about 100k larger than Raleigh, at it's original 140 sq mile core. That's why I cringe when people boast about Raleigh being more dense than Charlotte. With Raleigh's current city limits, Charlotte would be about 500,000+! That's right Raleighites, Charlotte is a much denser city!
Wake county's population is almost completely concentrated around Raleigh, so stating as if the entire pop. of Wake county is evenly distributed, is very misleading.
There's a reason (including on this board) Charlotte is compared more to the Raleigh area than Greensboro. I say who cares. I just can't let you spread misinfo, because I'm a geek for stats.
BTW. Most of Charlotte's growth has came by the way of heavy annexation. Charlotte is currently over 300 sq miles! Most of Charlotte's growth is also suburban, so is every other city in the south, or out west. "Most" of Charlotte's growth IS NOT urban by a long shot. Charlotte has a faster growing urban core sure, but most of the city's total growth does not take place in central Charlotte buddy.
Your bias against Raleigh is weird, I just don't get it... Next thing you know you'll start comparing Raleigh with Fayetteville.
Your information is so full of holes, I don't know where to start. Raleigh's Urban Area (the most accurate determination of a city's size) is almost the same size as Charlotte's (800,000+ vs 900,000+), wow big difference. Greensboro's UA is just a little over 400,000. Heck Winston-Salem's UA is slightly larger than Greensboro's. The city of Raleigh by itself is 400,000! The gap between Raleigh and Charlotte's Urban Area has narrowed tremendously since the 2000 census, mainly due to Raleigh's booming suburbs. Raleigh has the fastest growing UA in the United States!
One thing you are right about is the fact Charlotte is indeed about 100k larger than Raleigh, at it's original 140 sq mile core. That's why I cringe when people boast about Raleigh being more dense than Charlotte. With Raleigh's current city limits, Charlotte would be about 500,000+! That's right Raleighites, Charlotte is a much denser city!
Wake county's population is almost completely concentrated around Raleigh, so stating as if the entire pop. of Wake county is evenly distributed, is very misleading.
There's a reason (including on this board) Charlotte is compared more to the Raleigh area than Greensboro. I say who cares. I just can't let you spread misinfo, because I'm a geek for stats.
BTW. Most of Charlotte's growth has came by the way of heavy annexation. Charlotte is currently over 300 sq miles! Most of Charlotte's growth is also suburban, so is every other city in the south, or out west. "Most" of Charlotte's growth IS NOT urban by a long shot. Charlotte has a faster growing urban core sure, but most of the city's total growth does not take place in central Charlotte buddy.
Your bias against Raleigh is weird, I just don't get it... Next thing you know you'll start comparing Raleigh with Fayetteville.
First of all, UA measures non-stop census blocks of a certain density (I believe 1,000 people per sq/mi is the cut off). With that said, Raleigh's 800,000+ UA is no doubt the result of Durham and Raleigh finally running into each other via US 70 and I-40. Charlotte has not ran into any of its larger neighbors yet (Gastonia, Concord, Rock Hill). Besides, UA is a seriously flawed method of judging a city's size. Back in 2000, Atlanta was larger than San Fran according to UA.
Like I said, UA is nothing more than a measure of how long 1,000 people per sq/mi or better density holds up. In time, Charlotte's UA will swell past 1.5 million almost over night as Charlotte grows into its neighbors (like Raleigh has done). For once I agree with you. Raleigh is by far NC's leader in sprawl. This is something I already knew.
As for my so called bias against Raleigh, PLEASE!!! I am one of MANY that wishes Raleigh would use its growth to build a true city. That is my only problem with Raleigh and the Triangle. The area's polycentric layout makes it look bigger on paper than what it actually looks and feels like in person. You can not compare the numbers of a polycentric region vs. a monocentric region. If both regions are the same population, the monocentric region will always look and feel bigger. That is just the way it is. Raleigh by itself is seriously lacking; regardless of how big Durham makes Raleigh appear on paper.
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 06-27-2009 at 01:13 AM..
Urbancharlotte, as I mentioned earlier, you've made the mistake of assuming that bigger is better. Charlotte is okay, but I for one don't miss the ridiculous traffic, the crime, the local leaders who often seem to have their heads up their collective hind ends, the smog, etc., etc.
In those respects, I'm glad the Triangle and Triad aren't in the same league as Charlotte!
In those respects, I'm glad the Triangle and Triad aren't in the same league as Charlotte!
Don't be too glad. The local leaders in the Triad and Triangle are working very hard to make Greensboro and Raleigh more monocentric just like Charlotte. Obviously, they will have SERIOUS opposition from the Winston-Salem and Durham leaders, but that won't stop them from trying. In the end, we will have three different "sprawl-topias" of more than 2 million people each very soon.
First of all, UA measures non-stop census blocks of a certain density (I believe 1,000 people per sq/mi is the cut off). With that said, Raleigh's 800,000+ UA is no doubt the result of Durham and Raleigh finally running into each other via US 70 and I-40. Charlotte has not ran into any of its larger neighbors yet (Gastonia, Concord, Rock Hill). Besides, UA is a seriously flawed method of judging a city's size. Back in 2000, Atlanta was larger than San Fran according to UA.
Like I said, UA is nothing more than a measure of how long 1,000 people per sq/mi or better density holds up. In time, Charlotte's UA will swell past 1.5 million almost over night as Charlotte grows into its neighbors (like Raleigh has done). For once I agree with you. Raleigh is by far NC's leader in sprawl. This is something I already knew.
As for my so called bias against Raleigh, PLEASE!!! I am one of MANY that wishes Raleigh would use its growth to build a true city. That is my only problem with Raleigh and the Triangle. The area's polycentric layout makes it look bigger on paper than what it actually looks and feels like in person. You can not compare the numbers of a polycentric region vs. a monocentric region. If both regions are the same population, the monocentric region will always look and feel bigger. That is just the way it is. Raleigh by itself is seriously lacking; regardless of how big Durham makes Raleigh appear on paper.
Raleigh and Durham have separate UA's. Raleigh's current UA population is separate from Durham. Durham's UA is 350,000 by itself. Raleigh has numerous suburbs/towns surrounding it's boarders from all sides. Cary/Apex by themself are over 180,000!
Your bias is still trying to downplay Raleigh. When Charlotte's UA swells to 1.5 million. Guess what area will be right up there with it. Both of these areas are growing at break neck speed.
I think it is funny to hear somebody talk about how urban Charlotte is. Everyone I know who lives in Charlotte (and I know a lot) live in the suburbs. Most of them never go downtown. Charlotte has just as much sprawl (if not more) than the Triangle or the Triad.
Yes, charlotte is in a league of it's own, it is the sprawl utopia on NC! It's sprawl actually spans two states! Ouch!
Raleigh and Durham have separate UA's. Raleigh's current UA population is separate from Durham. Durham's UA is 350,000 by itself. Raleigh has numerous suburbs/towns surrounding it's boarders from all sides. Cary/Apex by themself are over 180,000!
Your bias is still trying to downplay Raleigh. When Charlotte's UA swells to 1.5 million. Guess what area will be right up there with it. Both of these areas are growing at break neck speed.
Atlanta is a major metropolis, get over it...
No one is trying to downplay anything about any city. Raleigh does a good enough job downplaying itself when it comes to looking and feeling like a real city. As for Atlanta (LOL LOL LOL) read this recent post of mine from the NC vs. Georgia thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
Some of my friends in Charlotte are going to hate me for this, but oh well. They'll get over it.
Georgia wins hands down!!! Why? ATLANTA!!! Being that I lived in Atlanta (Lithonia to be exact) for a short while, it is EASY for me to say that North Carolina badly needs an Atlanta-like city. Charlotte is the closest thing NC has to Atlanta in terms of "big city" feel. However, there is a huge gap between Charlotte and Atlanta.
As for the future (15 to 20 years down the road) I am convinced Charlotte will close the wide gap between itself and Atlanta. Many of metro Atlanta's inner largest counties are slowing down in growth rate (it is the smaller counties on the fringes that are booming now). Charlotte's inner largest metro counties are just starting to boom (I call it the I-485 effect which is very similar to Atlanta's I-285 effect). By no means will Charlotte catch up to Atlanta in metro population. That is NOT what I meant when I said "close the wide gap between itself and Atlanta".
In 15 to 20 years, I believe Charlotte and Atlanta will be in the same tier for the first time (ie Chicago and Detroit). Metro Chicago is twice the size of Metro Detroit (10 million vs 5 million), however Chicago and Detroit are still two cities in similar leagues. I see metro Atlanta being nearly 8 million people in 20 years. However, I see metro Charlotte being nearly 3.5 million in 20 years.
As of now, Atlanta sits on 5.7 million CSA. Charlotte is at 2.3 million CSA. Most of Atlanta's next 2.3 million new residents will move to counties more than 30 miles away from downtown Atlanta. Most of Charlotte's next 1.2 million new residents will move to areas less than 30 miles from uptown Charlotte. This will result in Charlotte looking and feeling more like Atlanta simply because Charlotte's inner metro counties are going to catch up to Atlanta's inner metro counties extremely fast.
Like I said, as of now, Georgia wins hands down. As for the future, NC will soon offer a city on Atlanta's level (not Atlanta's size, just Atlanta's level).
^^^^^I posted this about 5 hours before you posted your "Atlanta is a major metropolis, get over it..." comment. I can think of quite a few times when I dissed Charlotte MUCH worse than this and gave Atlanta props. You obviously don't know me very well at all. My sister still lives in Lithonia GA. Atlanta is one of my second homes LOL!!! Kentucky is another!!!
As for Raleigh and the Triad (the original topic of this thread), I am convinced the Triangle will not be in the same league as the Triad in 20 years. The Triangle will most certainly be the same size of metro Charlotte or even larger (Charlotte at 3.5 million and the Triangle at 3.6 million). However, the Triangle will still be polycentric. This is Raleigh's biggest enemy. The lack of focus in the Triangle will cause Raleigh to miss out on opportunities that monocentric metros of 3 million or better have no problem getting. Raleigh/Durham will be NC's Tampa/St. Pete. Charlotte will be NC's Atlanta. Now if I am still downplaying Raleigh, feel free to let me know. As of today, the Triangle is in the same league as the Triad. As of today, Charlotte is in the same league as Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus Ohio. Get over it...
Last edited by urbancharlotte; 06-28-2009 at 12:50 AM..
If that is what you think and actually want I feel sorry for you. Modeling your city after the growth style of the Sprawl Capital of the world (Atlanta) is bad news for Charlotte.
BTW, don't cancel your CDL just yet. I think your future as a truck driver is much better than that of an urban planner. You just don't seem to have a working understanding of basic urban planning concepts or terms. And please, stop posting about Charlotte and Raleigh on the city vs. city forum. Your inane arguements make both cities look bad.
No one is trying to downplay anything about any city. Raleigh does a good enough job downplaying itself when it comes to looking and feeling like a real city. As for Atlanta (LOL LOL LOL) read this recent post of mine from the NC vs. Georgia thread.
^^^^^I posted this about 5 hours before you posted your "Atlanta is a major metropolis, get over it..." comment. I can think of quite a few times when I dissed Charlotte MUCH worse than this and gave Atlanta props. You obviously don't know me very well at all. My sister still lives in Lithonia GA. Atlanta is one of my second homes LOL!!! Kentucky is another!!!
As for Raleigh and the Triad (the original topic of this thread), I am convinced the Triangle will not be in the same league as the Triad in 20 years. The Triangle will most certainly be the same size of metro Charlotte or even larger (Charlotte at 3.5 million and the Triangle at 3.6 million). However, the Triangle will still be polycentric. This is Raleigh's biggest enemy. The lack of focus in the Triangle will cause Raleigh to miss out on opportunities that monocentric metros of 3 million or better have no problem getting. Raleigh/Durham will be NC's Tampa/St. Pete. Charlotte will be NC's Atlanta. Now if I am still downplaying Raleigh, feel free to let me know. As of today, the Triangle is in the same league as the Triad. As of today, Charlotte is in the same league as Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus Ohio. Get over it...
It's funny that all three of NC's major metros are all roughly the same size.
What is this polymonoquadroduocentric talk? Are those new words you've learned or something?
So what if this area has multiple cities, that's part of what makes it so interesting. Especially considering the fact all three cities have distinct personalities. What do you want our local gov't to do? Blow up Durham and Chapel Hill, so this region will solely revolve around Raleigh? If you like Charlotte fine, but there are also millions who love the Raleigh/DURHAM area as well...
I could care less about those less than stellar cities as well. Raleigh and Charlotte both outshine those areas by a looong shot. They've had their reign, now it's NC's turn.
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I am one of MANY that wishes Raleigh would use its growth to build a true city. That is my only problem with Raleigh and the Triangle. The area's polycentric layout makes it look bigger on paper than what it actually looks and feels like in person. You can not compare the numbers of a polycentric region vs. a monocentric region. If both regions are the same population, the monocentric region will always look and feel bigger. That is just the way it is. Raleigh by itself is seriously lacking; regardless of how big Durham makes Raleigh appear on paper.
