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Slavery was far more than a politicized issue like gay marraige or abortion.
The entire basis for secession was Lincoln's campaign to stop the spread of slavery to the new territories and states of the West.
Slaveholders and representatives from slaveholding states held undue power in the U.S. government because of the 3/5 rule which allowed them to include slaves in their vote. So, while the Southern states were far less populous, the slaveholding classes were overrepresented in government. These slaveholders saw the halt of slavery to new states as an imposition on their power and they resented the increasing numbers and power of the North, they decided to have a little hissy-fit and secede, which is illegal.
All Lincoln was going to do was say, keep your slaves, "but the country will not create more states allowing slavery." But the Southerners didn't want that. So, they got what they deserved.
And slavery was not on its way out. Look at sharecropping in the South, which lasted well into the 20th century. You're seriously telling me that Southern landowners would not have kept slaves instead if they could? Slaves would have operated the mills and other mechanized production methods as they had in the North in the early 1800s.....if the mills had even come to the South. Slavery might have gone away, but it would have lasted much longer. There just wasn't the political will to do away with it without pressure from New England.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
The Confederacy was a country, not a rebellion, wh/ implies people not following a law. The states removed themselves from the Union. There was no overthrow of the US government.
You need to get your terminology right and your facts straight. The states that removed themselves from the Union formed their own country called the Confederacy.
And it did not happen b/c Southerners wished to keep the institution of slavery in place. Slavery was a politicized issue, much like abortion and gay marriage are today. Slavery was on the way out b/f the Civil War even started - people agreed it was an abominable institution. Only the wealthy landowners stood to lose anything if slavery were abolished. The industrial age had mechanized cotton production.
Even the confederates thought of themselves as rebels. And they did overthrow the US government in portions of the country.
But the formation of the Confederacy itself was not an insurrection. There is a difference. These states decided they wanted out of a union they had helped forge. The feds sent armies to keep them from doing it. Why? Because the factories up north needed Southern cotton. The rest of the issues were political fodder. As I said earlier, the industrial age made slave labor less attractive. Now that is the plain truth. It was expensive to purchase slaves and expensive to feed them. They were an investment, treated like chattel. The arguments were over recognizing slaves as citizens. Y'all need to read a lot more history and not accept the pablum taught in high schools and colleges. I have spent 30 years reading primary documents on this subject and it is sickening to see how the issue of slavery was politicized - by BOTH sides. The institution was wrong. End of story. But the economic implications of an agrarian society incorporating mechanization - and the need for money to start up factories - was at the core of why the Civil War was fought. You really should honor your ancestors by learning what it was THEY thought the war was about, instead of accepting the myths that have been popularized for 100 years.
No. The swastika was a positive religious symbol. The Confederate flag was the flag of a rebellion, and the flag which represented keeping a race of people in bondage. So, the people who perverted the swastika are much worse than those who used the rebel flag. The use of the rebel flag for racist purposes actually makes logical sense as that insurrection was built on the backs of many slaves. However, the swastika-users completely perverted a positive religious symbol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains
You're really going to tell me that the evil vermin who used the swastika inappropriately for their cause is ANY DIFFERENT than the evil vermin who used the stars and bars inappropriately for their cause???
This is very similar to what happened to the swastika. Hitler stole this ancient Hindu symbol and used it to represent his evil regime. Does this mean that Hindu's should never use the symbol themselves again??
I agree it's a shame the swastika was acquired by Hitler and became his symbol of hatred and superiority.
But I don't know a lot of people, Jewish or otherwise, who would not have a strong aversion to seeing the swastika today painted on someone's door. There are just some things that cause a strong visceral reaction that is hard to be logical about, in spite of the real meaning of the symbol.
Ani: I have never heard of the national flag you posted here. I always thought of the Confederate flag as the one with the cross on it.
I am not a history buff, but I do know that the South Carolina secession orders listed the governments interference in slavery (as an institution) as the reason for secession. I believe the wording was to the effect that the gov was interfering with their property rights. I believe GA and Mississippi used similar language.
So while there were other issues, I don't think it is accurate to state that slavery was on the way out and that teh south did not take that position.
Anywho, I'm sure this thread will be hopping for the rest of the evening.
Slavery was far more than a politicized issue like gay marraige or abortion.
The entire basis for secession was Lincoln's campaign to stop the spread of slavery to the new territories and states of the West.
Slaveholders and representatives from slaveholding states held undue power in the U.S. government because of the 3/5 rule which allowed them to include slaves in their vote. So, while the Southern states were far less populous, the slaveholding classes were overrepresented in government. These slaveholders saw the halt of slavery to new states as an imposition on their power and they resented the increasing numbers and power of the North, they decided to have a little hissy-fit and secede, which is illegal.
All Lincoln was going to do was say, keep your slaves, "but the country will not create more states allowing slavery." But the Southerners didn't want that. So, they got what they deserved.
And slavery was not on its way out. Look at sharecropping in the South, which lasted well into the 20th century. You're seriously telling me that Southern landowners would not have kept slaves instead if they could? Slaves would have operated the mills and other mechanized production methods as they had in the North in the early 1800s.....if the mills had even come to the South. Slavery might have gone away, but it would have lasted much longer. There just wasn't the political will to do away with it without pressure from New England.
You are correct about the timeline with events and the political reasons for why Northern and Southern legislators butted heads over slavery.
But that is not my point at all. I am talking about what the average Joe on the street thought about all this and how it affected their lives. The wealthy landowners (who were also Senators and Congressmen) were the ones who had something at stake - not only with their POLITICAL careers (and w/ the laws that would be imposed in their own states) but w/ their own fortunes.
When I say the issues were politicized much like gay marriage or abortion have been today - I am saying - the average person out here does not even THINK about those issues often, yet a politician can lose an election over his or her stance on abortion.
What I am trying to point out are NOT the historical facts as dissected in history books - but rather - some insight into how the average North Carolinian felt about all this! Most of them didn't own slaves and they didn't care about DYING over the issue b/c some politicians decided to make it the cornerstone of a case for secession.
People didn't care to give their lives so that slavery as an institution could prevail in the South. See what I am saying? It was EASY for the politicians to take a stance (for their own personal reasons, especially) when someone else has to go take the bullet.
Your state says you gotta go sign up - YOU GO!! I had several GGG Uncles who were conscripted - taken out of their mother's house at gun point - at the ages of 15 and 16 - and hauled off to fight for their country (the Confederacy). You can't tell me they wanted to do that.
North Carolina provided more troops to the Confederacy than any other Southern state and also suffered more casualties. North Carolina Confederate deaths of all causes during the Civil War are estimated at about 40,275, the largest of any state.
I agree it's a shame the swastika was acquired by Hitler and became his symbol of hatred and superiority.
But I don't know a lot of people, Jewish or otherwise, who would not have a strong aversion to seeing the swastika today painted on someone's door. There are just some things that cause a strong visceral reaction that is hard to be logical about, in spite of the real meaning of the symbol.
Ani: I have never heard of the national flag you posted here. I always thought of the Confederate flag as the one with the cross on it.
Most people would only know the battle flag. I have read many references over the years that state that most military regiments used the Confederate First National, even tho there was confusion on the battle field at times b/c the flag is so similar to the US flag. That is why the battle flag was designed - to make it look very different from the American flag, but many regiments continued to use the First National flag.
There are other flags, as well. There is an historian here (not sure if in NC or SC) who has spent a lifetime collecting info on all the flags that were used during the Civil War. I wish I could remember his name as he may have a website I could share.
Last edited by brokensky; 05-07-2009 at 03:18 PM..
The Confederacy was a state -- an illegitimate one formed through insurrection and rebellion and narrow self-interest.
Ani, I have an M.A. in American History, where I also spent a lot of time reading primary sources from Southerners and even some Northerners discussing slavery in the most glowing terms, how much of a shame it was that it no longer existed, how the blacks were so much better off under slavery, etc. The Lost Cause ideology permeated the South up through the 1970s. The stuff about history, especially the Civil War and Reconstruction in Southern textbooks before then was utter whitewash. It made Southerners feel better to think that the war wasn't really about slavery, meanwhile, the lynchings, sexual abuse and economic deprivation of blacks continued to assert that whites were in control.
Also, my ancestors were in Ireland at the time so I don't have a dog in that fight.
Furthermore, the South still wasn't really industrialized until after Reconstruction. The slaveowners had seen to that. And they continued to resist progress and would have continued to do so had they not been forced to. Or, until they were so destitute after secession that they had to.
The North's complicity in slavery is well-documented. And yes, they wanted a more direct route to Southern cotton. But Southerners were attempting to exert too much political control over the rest of the country relative to their numbers. It was holding the country back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
But the formation of the Confederacy itself was not an insurrection. There is a difference. These states decided they wanted out of a union they had helped forge. The feds sent armies to keep them from doing it. Why? Because the factories up north needed Southern cotton. The rest of the issues were political fodder. As I said earlier, the industrial age made slave labor less attractive. Now that is the plain truth. It was expensive to purchase slaves and expensive to feed them. They were an investment, treated like chattel. The arguments were over recognizing slaves as citizens. Y'all need to read a lot more history and not accept the pablum taught in high schools and colleges. I have spent 30 years reading primary documents on this subject and it is sickening to see how the issue of slavery was politicized - by BOTH sides. The institution was wrong. End of story. But the economic implications of an agrarian society incorporating mechanization - and the need for money to start up factories - was at the core of why the Civil War was fought. You really should honor your ancestors by learning what it was THEY thought the war was about, instead of accepting the myths that have been popularized for 100 years.
I am not a history buff, but I do know that the South Carolina secession orders listed the governments interference in slavery (as an institution) as the reason for secession. I believe the wording was to the effect that the gov was interfering with their property rights. I believe GA and Mississippi used similar language.
So while there were other issues, I don't think it is accurate to state that slavery was on the way out and that teh south did not take that position.
Anywho, I'm sure this thread will be hopping for the rest of the evening.
You are correct. However, I am talking about what the average person thought, not what the politicians (on both sides) thought.
Because of the mechanization of farm tasks, slavery was just not as useful an institution as it had been in the past. Look at what happened after the Civil War. Life went on without slaves, didn't it? At least, it did here in NC b/c people here had not relied on slave labor the way other states had.
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Swastika
I have read many references over the years that state that most military regiments used the Confederate First National, even tho there was confusion on the battle field at times b/c the flag is so similar to the US flag. That is why the battle flag was designed - to make it look very different from the American flag, but many regiments continued to use the First National flag.
