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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,802 posts, read 33,834,329 times
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I don't see a problem with flying the flag.
Actually, I'm used to seeing the stars & bars flown on a regular basis. Back in the '80s, when the southern counties of NJ wanted to secede & form a 51st state the stars & bars were adopted (cheap & easy to get) & even though that insurection was squashed, you still see the stars bars flown.
As to the Civil War (I always laugh when I see the late nineteenth century references to "The late unpleasantness". What did it take to get those people to get beyond unpleasant?) although I've only found Union soldiers in my families, there are rumors of Confederates, & people who vanished.
As has been stated, a large number of Confederate soldiers were hauled off at gunpoint & offered their choice of a bullet in the head or a place in the Confederate army. Most slaves in NC were on very large plantations in the eastern part of the state. Some men from western NC managed to get over the mountains & joined East TN Union regiments. This was not an option to most.
Also, as has been stated, NJ still had slaves on the 1860 census. The state legislature debated secession & joining the Confederacy. In mid-war the state attempted to declare peace. The history books make it seem like a black & white situation & it was not, by a long shot.
To anyone having a problem with honoring Confederate war dead, I think that Ambrose Bierce wrote an appropriate statement, years after the war. (He lived in the same Indiana community as several of my families before the war & joined an Indiana regiment, as did most of the fighting-age men in my families who lived in that town.)
In these forgotten graves rest the Confederate dead--between eighty and one hundred, as nearly as can be made out. Some fell in the"battle;"the majority died of disease. Two, only two, have apparently been disinterred for reburial at their homes. So neglected and obscure is this campo santo that only he upon whose farm it is--the aged postmaster of Travelers' Repose--appears to know about it. Men living within a mile have never heard of it. Yet other men must be still living who assisted to lay these Southern soldiers where they are, and could identify some of the graves. Is there a man, North or South, who would begrudge the expense of giving to these fallen brothers the tribute of green graves? One would rather not think so. True, there are several hundreds of such places still discoverable in the track of the great war. All the stronger is the dumb demand--the silent plea of these fallen brothers to what is"likest God within the soul."
They were honest and courageous foemen, having little in common with the political madmen who persuaded them to their doom and the literary bearers of false witness in the aftertime. They did not live through the period of honorable strife into the period of vilification--did not pass from the iron age to the brazen--from the era of the sword to that of the tongue and pen. Among them is no member of the Southern Historical Society. Their valor was not the fury of the non-combatant; they have no voice in the thunder of the civilians and the shouting. Not by them are impaired the dignity and infinite pathos of the Lost Cause. Give them, these blameless gentlemen, their rightful part in all the pomp that fills the circuit of the summer hills.
The Confederate flag was the flag of a rebellion, and the flag which represented keeping a race of people in bondage.
I would think that was exactly how the first American flag was viewed.
I think any Confederate flag is gonna be viewed by many as something negative today (not only b/c the Confederacy lost, but b/c skinheads and the KKK accessed the Confederate flag as their symbol). To me, the Confederacy was a new country and had I been alive then, I would have been a citizen in a state that had broken away from the Union and formed a new country called the Confederacy - and so I would have had no choice but either give my allegiance to the Confederacy (and its flag) or leave my home. I can only imagine how this felt to people at the time - very strange, I would think.
SouthBound . . . Thank you for the very appropriate and thought-provoking quote from Ambrose Bierce. I feel the same way about Union Soldiers' graves. One of the saddest moments I have felt was standing at the Salisbury National Cemetery, where this is a mass grave, and no exact count of how many men are interred there. I think of their families, waiting to know what had happened to their brothers, fathers, sons, cousins . . . and only knowing they were deceased.
People get ideology mixed up with simply honoring those who gave their lives, especially if they died in a war in which they did not even want to participate.
One of my ggg Uncles joined the Union. He had moved to Missouri and even tho his neighbors joined the Confederacy, he joined the Union. Why? I would like to think ideology compelled him to join the Union, but who knows? He had a choice, unlike his brothers here in NC. He died at a Confederate Prison Camp in Louisiana of smallpox. I can only imagine how awful that whole situation had to be for him and his peers. I have been searching for his grave for almost a decade. I can only imagine how he suffered - and since he is listed as having died of smallpox, I suspect his body was burned and buried in a mass grave, like those thousands in the Salisbury National Cemetery. His wife died soon after him and his children were orphaned. I have been trying to track where they ended up in hopes that someday, that branch of our family can be reunited.
This may seem meaningless to many people. To me, it is simply taking the time to honor what the people before me went through in trying to live here on this ground where I live now.
It is time this country grew up. We had a Civil War. The losses in both Armies were horrendous. What everyone faced was horrible. There are students of history all over the country who honor both sides of this conflict - not b/c they are enmeshed in ideology, but b/c MEN DIED. These men were our sons, our fathers, our brothers, our cousins. Families suffered. I am not hoisting up a flag to glorify or romanticize "a lost cause." I am flying it to remind us all that there was a time in this country when we were divided; when people lost their lives b/c reason did not prevail. Plain and simple. Those who fought under that flag, died under that flag. We, their descendants, give honor and allegiance to a country that was reunited. That doesn't mean the Civil War didn't happen.
Taking one day out of the year to think about that - what it means to have been a country torn apart - and to honor those who died when we were a country torn apart - is a very small thing to do to remind us all that we may have differences . . . we may not always see things like our brother sees those issues . . . but hopefully, we can come to terms w/ those differences w/out having to take up arms against our brothers.
Last edited by brokensky; 05-08-2009 at 07:13 AM..
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,802 posts, read 33,834,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821
SouthBound . . . Thank you for the very appropriate and thought-provoking quote from Ambrose Bierce. I feel the same way about Union Soldiers' graves. One of the saddest moments I have felt was standing at the Salisbury National Cemetery, where this is a mass grave, and no exact count of how many men are interred there. I only think of their families, waiting to know what had happened to their brothers, fathers, sons, cousins . . . and only knowing they were deceased.
People get ideology mixed up with simply honoring those who gave their lives, especially if they died in a war in which they did not even want to participate.
One of my ggg Uncles joined the Union. He had moved to Missouri and even tho his neighbors joined the Confederacy, he joined the Union. Why? I would like to think ideology compelled him to join the Union, but who knows? He had a choice, unlike his brothers here in NC. He died at a Confederate Prison Camp in Louisiana of smallpox. I can only imagine how awful that whole situation had to be for him and his peers. I have been searching for his grave for almost a decade. I can only imagine how he suffered - and since he is listed as having died of smallpox, I suspect his body was burned and buried in a mass grave, like those thousands in the Salisbury National Cemetery. His wife died soon after him and his children were orphaned. I have been trying to track where they ended up in hopes that someday, that branch of our family can be reunited.
This may seem meaningless to many people. To me, it is simply taking the time to honor what the people before me went through in trying to live here on this ground where I live now.
It is time this country grew up. We had a Civil War. The losses in both Armies were horrendous. What everyone faced was horrible. There are students of history all over the country who honor both sides of this conflict - not b/c they are enmeshed in ideology, but b/c MEN DIED. These men were our sons, our fathers, our brothers, our cousins. Families suffered. I am not hoisting up a flag to glorify or romanticize "a lost cause." I am flying it to remind us all that there was a time in this country when we were divided; when people lost their lives b/c reason did not prevail. Plain and simple. Those who fought under that flag, died under that flag. We, their descendants, give honor and allegiance to a country that was reunited. That doesn't mean the Civil War didn't happen.
Taking one day out of the year to think about that - what it means to have been a country torn apart - and to honor those who died when we were a country torn apart - is a very small thing to do to remind us all that we may have differences . . . we may not always see things like our brother sees those issues . . . but hopefully, we can come to terms w/ those differences w/out having to take up arms against our brothers.
Ani, thank you. I think that this thread is especially appropriate this year, with talk of secession, again, floating around. Over 600,000 soldiers died the last time, & to bring it up again is a slap to every soldier, North & South, who died.
Most likely, nearly everyone reading this who had family in this country during the Civil War lost someone. One of my ggg uncles, who was in the 30th Indiana, is buried in Danville VA, where he died of smallpox, as a POW, in an epidemic that killed Confederate guards (North Carolinians), Union POWs & civilians. One of his cousins was buried at Fort Sumter (better known as Andersonville), where he died of scurvy, & another cousin was captured & never seen again. That was just 3 members of one family. Many more died or were injured in that family alone.
With the 150th anniversay of that debacle quickly approaching, I think it's time that the country did something to honor the women, North & South, who were involved in that conflict.
Women were left to manage & sometimes do the farming themselves, besides their other duties. Some women volunteered to nurse the soldiers, despite the fact that nursing non family members was considered inappropriate & a job for men. Then there were the women who fought. The burial returns from Gettysburg give the number of Union dead buried, the number of Confederate dead buried, & the words 1 female Confederate private.
Last edited by southbound_295; 05-08-2009 at 08:24 AM..
The basis for the secession of the Confederate States of America was not because of slavery. The South seceeded because they were not being accurately represented in Congress. The Government had levied such high taxes on southern exports (i.e. cotton) that went overseas to Europe. The only thing this did, was bring the prices of their goods down, and it could be bought by Northern textile mills and factories at a fraction of the cost. That would make any businessman mad. That's like today, think of how upset you get when you hear of a company moving overseas because it's cheaper to make the stuff there, and sell it to us. We are getting gyped, and so was the South. The main reason that the South seceeded was because Lincoln was going to perpetuate these politics. Let's see, this sounds familiar... when the United States "seceeded" from Britain, it was for the SAME EXACT reason. You can slap "revolution" on it if you want, but the colonists REBELLED against an unjust government, it was a rebellion and a secession. So really, the Americans were the first to commit treason, against England.
Let's sit back and think for a minute. The Industrial Revolution was less than 30 years away, do you think slavery would have continued? No. Machines would have replaced slave labor, and people would've gladly switched as it would be MUCH cheaper. The average slave (in today's dollars) cost tens of thousands of dollars, that's why only the rich had them.
How can a war be fought over slavery, when both sides owned slaves during the Civil War? Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware were all slave states through the end of the Civil War, did Lincoln free those slaves? NOPE, NOT A ONE! He sure had the power to though, after all those states were in his jurisdiction. Let's make sure we're clear on this: The Civil War did not abolish slavery, it was not the North coming in and saving the South from its sin (don't forget about those northern slave states), slavery continued throughout the Civil War (on both sides) until the 13th amendment was passed... a year after the war ended.
That "illegal hissy-fit" that the South threw, was not illegal, any state could remove itself from the Union willingly if it saw the government no longer served its purpose for them. It wasn't until the war was over that "seceeding" was made illegal. It's called "Soveriegnty of the States." Remember, the US was founded on the principle, of less is more (in the federal government that is), and that power should rest with the states. SO... really it was ILLEGAL for Lincoln to invade the South, and that's a fact.
The Civil War is a very dense and deep subject that requires reading and studying to fully understand.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,802 posts, read 33,834,329 times
Reputation: 10250
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASC
The basis for the secession of the Confederate States of America was not because of slavery. The South seceeded because they were not being accurately represented in Congress. The Government had levied such high taxes on southern exports (i.e. cotton) that went overseas to Europe. The only thing this did, was bring the prices of their goods down, and it could be bought by Northern textile mills and factories at a fraction of the cost. That would make any businessman mad. That's like today, think of how upset you get when you hear of a company moving overseas because it's cheaper to make the stuff there, and sell it to us. We are getting gyped, and so was the South. The main reason that the South seceeded was because Lincoln was going to perpetuate these politics. Let's see, this sounds familiar... when the United States "seceeded" from Britain, it was for the SAME EXACT reason. You can slap "revolution" on it if you want, but the colonists REBELLED against an unjust government, it was a rebellion and a secession. So really, the Americans were the first to commit treason, against England.
Let's sit back and think for a minute. The Industrial Revolution was less than 30 years away, do you think slavery would have continued? No. Machines would have replaced slave labor, and people would've gladly switched as it would be MUCH cheaper. The average slave (in today's dollars) cost tens of thousands of dollars, that's why only the rich had them.
How can a war be fought over slavery, when both sides owned slaves during the Civil War? Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware were all slave states through the end of the Civil War, did Lincoln free those slaves? NOPE, NOT A ONE! He sure had the power to though, after all those states were in his jurisdiction. Let's make sure we're clear on this: The Civil War did not abolish slavery, it was not the North coming in and saving the South from its sin (don't forget about those northern slave states), slavery continued throughout the Civil War (on both sides) until the 13th amendment was passed... a year after the war ended.
That "illegal hissy-fit" that the South threw, was not illegal, any state could remove itself from the Union willingly if it saw the government no longer served its purpose for them. It wasn't until the war was over that "seceeding" was made illegal. It's called "Soveriegnty of the States." Remember, the US was founded on the principle, of less is more (in the federal government that is), and that power should rest with the states. SO... really it was ILLEGAL for Lincoln to invade the South, and that's a fact.
The Civil War is a very dense and deep subject that requires reading and studying to fully understand.
Just to touch on a few of your points here. You listed the border states as having slaves. You missed NJ. The state still had a handful of legal slaves at the time of the Civil War.
You do understand, don't you, that slaves did not just work as farm labor & domestic help?
The southern states seceeded for several reasons which varied from state to state. Slavery was involved but most certainly was not the only reason.
Where was your arguement, for or against the display of the flag on May 10 to honor men who died during the war?
I agree with the posters who have said that the flag represents something unacceptable since it was hijacked. But I also agree with Ani about respecting the flag. First, I was born in Chicago making me a "northerner". I grew up with the winner's version of the war. But I am also a history buff-no degrees here-and particularly a Civil War buff. We all know many things: The war was fought basically over economic issues: The North was certainly not blameless since it was not for freeing the slaves the war was fought but to keep the Union in tact(a noble issue) and for economic reasons; There were mass desertions from the Northern armies after the Emancipation Proclamation; The Reconstruction period-the victor's "shining moment"; And in the South, the majority of the plantation owners paid people to fight in their place in a war that was suppose to protect their rights to own slaves and survive financially; and on and on.
But I have come to look at the war not from a Northern or Southern view, but from the soldier's view. I have been to many battlefields and walked in many cemetaries. I really can't decribe the feelings you get in those places. Particularly when I walked the Sunken Road in Antietam. Just a very profound feeling came over me. These were the men that paid the price, as all soldiers in all wars do. The majority of the Union soldiers believed they were fighting to protect the Union from breaking up, and yes some to abolish slavery. The Confederate soldiers were fighting for their homes, their land, their state. The Union soldiers were "Americans"; The Confederate soldiers were Virginians, Tar Heels, Georgians. That was the how things were at that time. So I don't look at the Northern soldiers as the great emancipators. Or the Southern soldiers as the rebels. Simply, they were fighting for their beliefs. And that's why I am on their side. And therefore the flags that represented these beliefs at that time should be respected. On both sides. My heart also lies with the slaves many of whom finally found freedom and for the free African Americans in the North who really didn't fare much better except they were already "free". The soldiers and the African Americans all paid the price for the country we have today. We should remember their sacrifices and respect all of them for what they endured.
At the end of Ken Burns exceptional documentary on the Civil War there was a segment about the 50th anniversary of Pickett's Charge. The survivors were there on their respective sides. As the old Confederate soldiers slowly crossed the field letting out their battle cry, the Northern soldiers were so emotionally taken aback and filled with memories of that horrible day that they ran across the field not to fight their old enemies, but to cross the field with them as one. I am not quite sure we have all learned that lesson yet. Hopefully someday we will.
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