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I don't live in ND. But it is one of the few places that I am considering moving to. For me personally, it has little to do with cost of living. I just desperately want to remove myself from the urban/suburban environment. It's driving me insane. Now, granted, there are other rural areas (a few that I am considering), but my main motivation, really, is climate. I hate long, ridiculously hot summers. I don't mind an occasional hot day, but I'm a cold weather person for the most part. So my criteria is cool/cold average temps and rural/small town setting. North Dakota is the first place I researched. I've since looked into northern Maine, UP Michigan, upper LP Michigan, Montana, northeastern Washington, and coastal Oregon/Washington. Right now, Michigan and North Dakota are tops on my list.
The main negative comments I read about ND is the cold and that there is nothing to do. Well, I actually like the cold, so that is not a problem. And I've never really understood the 'nothing to do' thing. I live in a metro area right now and I hate it. The main things I enjoy take me out of the city.I love to hike, jog, xc-ski, and just wander around or drive around in the wilderness/countryside. Other things I enjoy are not dependent on where I live--like to read, write, paint/art, music, study, hobbies, etc. I can do all these things in ND just as easily or more easily than where I am now. I'll bet I won't see gridlock up there and wall-to-wall people either. And I don't need ten dozen stores to choose from. A basic grocery store and other basic shops are fine by me.
I think where a person wants to live is very dependent on their temperament and preferred climate. One man's chunk of coal is another man's gold nugget. If you offered me a two million dollar a year job in the heavily populated east coast states, I would refuse it outright and without question. My sanity is more important to me than is money. If you offered me a job in central ND with a meager but livable wage, I'd take it tomorrow.
I think Chris summed up my feelings about North Dakota also. I'm hoping to be living there in a year to 2. I'm tired of this concrete jungle I'm living in around the Chicago area, the constant traffic jams with no end in site, rude drivers, worries about crime, overcrowding and every other negative involved with living in an urban/suburban area. Big cities hold nothing for me. A lot of this so-called 'culture' that's supposed to be around a big city is not something I need nor desire. I have never been to something like an opera in my life and don't intend to go. The only time I ever saw it was on TV and it looked mightly boring. The last time I was at a museum was over 30 years ago. I don't know where the local public library is and don't care. I can find everything I need on the Internet. And I'm not into fancy overpriced and small portion restaurants nor diversity. I'm more of a guy that likes rock music, a local dive bar with friends, deserted country roads where you can see forever, tinkering with cars and trucks and mostly to be left alone.
I'm a cold weather lover and would prefer -20 and a blizzard to 90 degree heat and humidity. When I want to do something on the weekend, I usually go away from the city not towards it.
Doesn't New Jersey have killer property taxes? I've poked my head into the New Jersey forums a number of times and constantly hear complaining about excessive property taxes, especially on nice houses in suburban areas. $10000 and up seems to be a common theme. I don't know what you get for that kind of money. The taxes on my vacant land in NoDak now is $50 and when I build a house and barn, the county estimates my taxes will be around $2000 or less - I can live with that.
Maybe one of the reasons we don't want to live out on the east coast is the people / government (I think I am old enough to pump my own gas).
Sorry but the east coast way of life is not preferred by most North Dakotans.
But just remember making money is not all life is about. May take you a while to figure that out. Someone with kids should have figured that out already. I happen to be pretty lucky. I make a decent living, and still have a great quality of life. I know others who are a slave to their jobs, but make decent money.
But you do get an A for all the work you put into your post.
you make a very good case, but you seem to be equating "cost of living" with "perks of a higher paying job". the only argument you're really making is for how much better a life is when one has more financial resources; that's not on the table.
many things are less expensive here: used cars, food, insurance, homes, daycare, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. i guess it's shaping up that almost everything here is less expensive.
here we have very little crime, little traffic congestion, little pollution, and better schools. there are probably some other things to consider, but those are the easiest for me to remember. i will never make a case for someone to move here, unless they fall into one of four categories:
elderly, with children, college-bound, alcoholic.
congratulations on clarifying something that all of us already know well. while you're at it, you might want to mention how wet water is, how many inches are in a foot, and who the first president of the usa was. in the end, it's (mostly) a values judgement.
Are they less expensive? If they truly are, are they half price to equate for the earning power difference between ND and NJ?
If I pay $10.50 for a movie ticket, do you pay $5.25?
If I play $4.99 for a Blockbuster movie, do you pay $2.50?
If I pay $2.89 a gallon for milk, do you pay $1.45?
If I play $30 for a meal for 2 at Applebees, are you paying $15?
I acknowledged that home prices were cheaper in ND though I'm beginning to question the assumption that they are half the price based on the little research I did. However home prices only account for about 1/4 of your expenses each month. The other 75% of the money you spend each month is on items that cost more or less the same as what they cost in NJ. Maybe I pay a 10% premium? You see the data I listed above, you tell me. What I'm fairly confident of is that you won't tell me you pay half for all those things even though you make half for choosing to live in ND.
As for your other things. People equate NJ to the cities they hear about. The crime in Trenton, Camden, Jersey City, and Paterson. Did you realize outside of those 4 cities, NJ has one of the lowest crime rate in the US? NJ is an incredibly diverse state having both the most large cities of any state in the US and the most small cities of any state in the US. You get to combine all the perks of small town living (if you choose) with all the berks of big city life (again, if you choose). And schools, you think they're good in ND? Check out this link of America's Best High Schools:
NJ is in a tie for 6th... ND is in a tie for dead last. I spent 12 years in ND schools, I know how pathetic they are. I shudder when imagining how they are in the even smaller areas of ND. I would compare test scores but interestingly enough, none are reported for ND schools on the site I've used. Surely you weren't talking about the colleges... I mean seriously, NDSU and UND don't exactly get national recognition as beacons of scholastic enlightenment.
As for your last paragraph, yes, you're right, I was pointing out the differences that having more financial means allow. What I was also pointing out is that moving to ND isn't going to give people the more financial means some seem to imply by suggesting that ND has a low cost of living. That low cost of living comes with an even lower salary cap which simply restricts your discretionary income further making it harder to enjoy the "perks" that having money implies. Can I live better in ND on $200k than I could in NJ? Of course... could I make $200k in ND? Probably not, it'd likely be half. Can I live better in ND on $100k than I can in NJ on $200k? My analysis above shows that you absolutely can not. That was the point.
If you want peace, quiet, and tranquility... great! You'll definitely find that in most of ND. I was simply demonstrating the illusion of a better financial life resulting from a lower cost of living in ND was just that, an illusion, a falacy.
Maybe one of the reasons we don't want to live out on the east coast is the people / government (I think I am old enough to pump my own gas).
Sorry but the east coast way of life is not preferred by most North Dakotans.
But just remember making money is not all life is about. May take you a while to figure that out. Someone with kids should have figured that out already. I happen to be pretty lucky. I make a decent living, and still have a great quality of life. I know others who are a slave to their jobs, but make decent money.
But you do get an A for all the work you put into your post.
Fair enough. I will grant you that the Governments on the east coast are quite corrupt. That is one of the issues with money, it attracts corruption likes flies to ****. We actually had a candidate running for Governor 4 years ago who implied that. He simply said if you want to get rid of corruption in Government get rid of the money. A smaller Government almost by definition would have less corruption as there'd be less money, less attraction for corrupt individuals.
As for pumping my own gas, that's a NJ thing and most of us love it, especially being we don't pay a premium to have it done. I remember Bismarck/Mandan gas prices to be insane growing up, especially with an oil refinery right there. We're paying about $2.50 a gallon for full service regular here, what are you guys paying to pump your own?
As for money being all there is in life, you're correct in stating that it's not. My belief is this though, we work for money. Now if I need to work twice as hard, twice as long, to make twice as much we could have a debate about the benefits and draw backs of that decision. But if we're both working the same sorts of hours and subjecting ourselves to the same sorts of stress levels, I'd much rather have the higher salary NJ offers than what ND offers. If I do that, I can enjoy an even greater quality of life.
I like North Dakotans, I do, they're good, hard working, and honest people. I have no shame in admitting I was born and raised in ND. There are definitely values instilled in a state like ND that tend to be missing in some other states. There is a definite sense of entitlement on the east coast that's not nearly as prominent back in the midwest where people are used to slaving away for everything they've got.
I was simply looking to potentially educate some who are considering ND or who've lived there their entire lives on what they may be passing up on bad information (i.e. low cost of living in ND = better life in ND). Additionally I figured some would provide me with enlightenment on all the positives ND offers that make the lack of pay, the 6 month winters with -40* temperatures, and complete lack of social amenities appealing to them.
Doesn't New Jersey have killer property taxes? I've poked my head into the New Jersey forums a number of times and constantly hear complaining about excessive property taxes, especially on nice houses in suburban areas. $10000 and up seems to be a common theme. I don't know what you get for that kind of money. The taxes on my vacant land in NoDak now is $50 and when I build a house and barn, the county estimates my taxes will be around $2000 or less - I can live with that.
NJ does have killer property taxes but that's to be expected at the higher home prices. Most cities and counties have property taxes in the 2.5% range which I believe is inline with what people are paying in the cities in ND (I think I read 2.2% in another thread here??). That's all rolled into the housing cost in NJ being twice what it is in ND, mortgage is double as are property taxes for a total payment of double.
I was simply demonstrating the illusion of a better financial life resulting from a lower cost of living in ND was just that, an illusion, a falacy.
on the topic of costs...
i only ever go to the cheap theater, which is somewhere between $1.5 and $2 (the last time i went)
i don't rent from blockbuster, but i never spend more than $2 for a film rental.
i stopped drinking milk almost 3 years ago
i have a few coupons for meals at applebee's, two for $20 with an appetizer
enough defending, i feel that you have made your point very well. your arguments are quite cogent and specific, that was excellent.
i offered the little defense of this area that i could.
on the topic of schools, i don't know how the schools are ranked, but around here, there is very little problem with illiteracy (when i last checked). as someone that hated high school with a passion (because i could sleep through class and still get an "A"), i'm a very poor person to ask about school quality; i was simply parroting.
i stay here because i'm afraid of new people and i'm comfortable here (even if i'm miserable). as to what other people like about the area... i don't know, i would be theorizing. if i had to guess, i would say that it's because religion is smeared over everything and that makes the closet-bigots and the christian zealots comfortable. up here, we still have the ten commandments on government property, laws against cohabitation, and unconstitutional blue laws that prohibit wal-mart from being open 24/7. i remember when grocery stores couldn't sell non-food products on sundays, and i'm only 26.
on the topic of costs...
i only ever go to the cheap theater, which is somewhere between $1.5 and $2 (the last time i went)
i don't rent from blockbuster, but i never spend more than $2 for a film rental.
i stopped drinking milk almost 3 years ago
i have a few coupons for meals at applebee's, two for $20 with an appetizer
enough defending, i feel that you have made your point very well. your arguments are quite cogent and specific, that was excellent.
i offered the little defense of this area that i could.
on the topic of schools, i don't know how the schools are ranked, but around here, there is very little problem with illiteracy (when i last checked). as someone that hated high school with a passion (because i could sleep through class and still get an "A"), i'm a very poor person to ask about school quality; i was simply parroting.
i stay here because i'm afraid of new people and i'm comfortable here (even if i'm miserable). as to what other people like about the area... i don't know, i would be theorizing. if i had to guess, i would say that it's because religion is smeared over everything and that makes the closet-bigots and the christian zealots comfortable. up here, we still have the ten commandments on government property, laws against cohabitation, and unconstitutional blue laws that prohibit wal-mart from being open 24/7. i remember when grocery stores couldn't sell non-food products on sundays, and i'm only 26.
I flirted with the cheerleaders and did the same
You do bring up interesting points on religion... I actually got into a heated debate at a Christmas party with an older lady once after she called everyone in North Dakota hypocrites because they tended to shun gays while claiming to be religious which by her definition meant they should love everyone. She didn't leave the discussion happy at all unfortunately.
As for your last paragraph, I'm afraid that's why a lot of people stay, out of fear. I understand most people attempt to stay within their comfort zones, it's a natural thing to do and I'm by no means fearless myself. There's just a lot more out there if you are willing to take a chance.
Now, that explains why people stay... but still, why would people move there!
Now, that explains why people stay... but still, why would people move there!
See, that's the thing that your very good 'logical' analysis can't explain: personal preference. We are all different and we are all driven by different factors. If I based my
choices only on the things you covered, my choices might be a lot like yours. But, I'm driven by totally different factors than you are for the most part. Truthfully, I would move to Barrow Alaska before I would move to New Jersey. And I understand that sounds insane to those with the same motivations as yours, but, by the same token, you have to understand that to someone with motivations closer to mine, your choosing to live where you do sounds insane. There really isn't a right and wrong. It's just hard to understand the choices others make when they are so different from our own--especially if we try to analyze them logically. It just doesn't compute!
"Now, that explains why people stay... but still, why would people move there!"
A variety of reasons for a variety of people:
1. Safety--I know one couple, in skilled labor fields, who up & moved from MD so that their kids could be safe at school, and, given their income bracket, so that they could live in a safe neighborhood. Now, if you are in the $200K+ range in Jersey that allows you to live in a gated community and can get your kids in Monmouth Country Day, that's maybe not a concern, but for many people it is. You may call that a form of fear, but perhaps it could be viewed as is taking one's parental responsibilities seriously.
2. A specific job, often teaching or research positions. An English or history PhD will pretty much go anywhere the job is, given that there are so few available. That goes for some medical specialties w/ ongoing research ties to Mayo Clinic as well (Roger Maris Cancer Center).
3. For some in the education fields, the quality of students as well as the level of institutional support. Yes, per student dollars may be lower, but I'm pretty sure that I could locate 10 people immediately who would prefer to teach in the Fargo Public Schools rather than Jersey City or Detroit. My husband, who is a professor, much prefers the high caliber of students in terms of preparedness and willingness to work to the ones in Chicago that he had as a grad student instructor.
4. The Fargo accent is less grating to their ears than the speech of "Joisey"
"Now, that explains why people stay... but still, why would people move there!"
A variety of reasons for a variety of people:
1. Safety--I know one couple, in skilled labor fields, who up & moved from MD so that their kids could be safe at school, and, given their income bracket, so that they could live in a safe neighborhood. Now, if you are in the $200K+ range in Jersey that allows you to live in a gated community and can get your kids in Monmouth Country Day, that's maybe not a concern, but for many people it is. You may call that a form of fear, but perhaps it could be viewed as is taking one's parental responsibilities seriously.
2. A specific job, often teaching or research positions. An English or history PhD will pretty much go anywhere the job is, given that there are so few available. That goes for some medical specialties w/ ongoing research ties to Mayo Clinic as well (Roger Maris Cancer Center).
3. For some in the education fields, the quality of students as well as the level of institutional support. Yes, per student dollars may be lower, but I'm pretty sure that I could locate 10 people immediately who would prefer to teach in the Fargo Public Schools rather than Jersey City or Detroit. My husband, who is a professor, much prefers the high caliber of students in terms of preparedness and willingness to work to the ones in Chicago that he had as a grad student instructor.
4. The Fargo accent is less grating to their ears than the speech of "Joisey"
1. That's a popular misconception. Outside of the 4 "ghetto" areas in NJ (Newark, Camden, Trenton, and Paterson), NJ is an extremely safe state. Because all services are done at the city/town level we have an insane number of cops in NJ due in large part to the insane number of small towns we have. There's no need for a gated community and I honestly wouldn't even know where to find one.
2. See, to me, this is the attraction of a place like NJ. Within a 30 - 60 minute drive of my company I can find at least 10 companies in my industry all employing at least a few hundred people. In ND, you may move for a specific job... but you better hope that job pans out. If you ever get stuck under a lousy boss, step on a political toe, or have any other occurence that results in a less than ideal working situation, you're stuck.
3. I'm not sure I understand this one. Again, the public schools in NJ are some of the top in the country. Sure, you don't want to teach in the ghetto but again, that's a small SMALL minority of the state. You also have to realize NJ has pockets of extreme overachievers because more affluent people tend to cluster and all of our schools are done at the local level. Would a teacher rather have a bunch of Harvard, Yale, Wharton, and MIT wannabes or a bunch of ND cowpokes who can barely tie their boots and are only in class cause their butt is sore from riding their cows at home? I don't have the stats but I'm fairly confident the % of students in NJ going on to higher education is far higher than that of ND.
4. Okay, you win... every time I have to hear about someone's "idear" or have someone "ax" me a question or take a sip of "woater", I want to pull my fricken hair out. While most of ND isn't a complete Canadian accent, most of NJ isn't the complete Staten Island accent many would believe but even those pockets are enough to drive a person nuts.
Real reasons not to live in NJ... panhandles... you don't make left turns in NJ, nope, you make 3 right turns to go left and the panhandles are located after the turn you really want to make so you drive past where you want to go than loop around and come back..
Street signs... don't have GPS? Don't know where you're going? Plan to follow signs? Good luck!
People... the stress and fast paced life out here tends to leave people with very little time, compassion, or concern for other people. While not everyone in ND is an angel nor is everyone in NJ a complete ass, people in ND are far more likely to actually look you in the eye and smile.
Beyond those things (only 1 of which really affects locals), NJ has few downsides. Because of it's vast diversity from mountains, to farms, to the shore, to urban areas, it really has a lot to offer anyone IMO.
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