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I've followed this board for a few weeks now, mostly out of idle curiousity. Having grown up in ND and having fled as soon as I was of age, I'm curious why some have stayed and why others would ever consider moving there. In my readings I've found many point to the low cost of living. So lets take a look at that.
A little about me. I'm 30, married, 3 young daughters, 3 college degrees, work in the defense industry. My wife has 2 degrees though she gets paid for neither. Our combined income is about $180k.
We'll use myself in South Jersey and compare it to someone in Bismarck.
As I am currently being relocated down to South Jersey, I've spent a LOT of time looking at homes. We're shopping for a 4 bedroom 2 1/2 bathroom home and have found many in good school districts, with no crime, in the $250 to 400k range. We're settling on something in the 300 - 330 range though the offer we just made on a home was for $295.
A Realtor.com search listed 128 homes in Bismarck currently for sale with 4+ bedrooms and 2 1/2+ baths ranging in price from $99k to $900k. The 64th home was listed at $264k (new listing btw, 527 Munich Dr if you're shopping). Frankly, that price amazed me. I didn't realize many couples in Bismarck had a combined income of near $90k to afford that!
Unfortunately, I don't want to do the math at those home prices as it'll just make ND look insanely expensive. Lets instead assume that a couple in ND "can" make $90k (half what we're making in NJ) and that they "can" buy a home for $150k (half of what we're paying in NJ). Given what I've seen, both are generous assumptions for ND.
So lets do the math. My take home pay is likely more than double my counter parts in ND. While I likely pay double in taxes for my double pay, my benefits end up being a smaller percentage of my take home pay as yours likely aren't any cheaper simply because you live in ND. My mortgage including property taxes and home owners insurance is probably double yours based on the assumptions we made above. So far, ND is looking just fine.
Lets look at the rest. I put 10% of my pay into my 401(K ), my employer matches 4% and gifts another 2%. Lets assume yours does the same. We're savings $28,800 a year to your $14,400. Now, assuming we never get a raise and continue to save the exact same amount every year for 30 years and average a 7% annual return, my investments will be worth $2,835,176, yours will be half that, $1,417,588. That's an extra $1.4M I have to spend during retirement.
Lets look at cars. Are cars cheaper in ND? Nope! So if you spend $300 a month for your Chevy, I can theoretically spend $600 a month (double the salary, double the payment) which will get me just about any car I want to drive. Or I could buy the same car as you and save an additional $300 a month.
Food? Again, same price. If I want to spend the same % of money on my grocery bill I can either buy higher end food, eat out more, or take advantage of fancy features like having my groceries purchased for me and delivered to my home (still trying to figure out how to get them to put the groceries away!)
Entertainment? Okay, so a night out at Applebees followed by a movie is maybe a little cheaper in ND. My wife and I would spend about $33 at Applebees with an appetizer and another $30 bucks at the theatre with popcorn and a soda (pop for you in ND!). I'm guessing in ND the meal may be about $5 cheaper, the theatre about the same (we pay $10.50 for tickets?). Again, as a %, this means we can go out about 3 times for your every 2 and spend the same % of our take home pay.
College loans? Interest rates and payments don't flucuate based on zip code. I'm guessing few in ND would even consider accumulating the debt I have because they couldn't make the $1,500 a month payment towards the loans but that was a personal choice I made and so far it's working out.
How about vacations? You save 5% of your pay for vacations and take your family on an okay trip for $4,500. Flying out of ND is crazy expensive and your motel won't be any cheaper. But ignoring those, the same 5% of my income gets my family a $9,000 annual vacation.
At the end of the day I may pay twice as much for my home, but again, I make twice as much. When you consider we pay exactly the same for college loans, car payments, food, vacations, and basically everything other than housing, the cost of living in ND is actually horrible because you have no discretionary income when compared to places like NJ.
Me in NJSomeone in Bismarck
Montly Income $9,500 $4,750
- Mortgage $2,550 $1,275
- Car $300 $300
- Groceries $600 $600
- Retirement $950 $475
- 5% vacation $475$237
Remaining: $4,625 $1,863
Even though I save twice as much for retirement, take twice the vacation, and pay twice as much for my home, at the end of the month I have $2,762 more to spend on whatever I'd like.
Lets go a step farther. Lets say in 30 years I want to leave NJ and return to ND (maybe I'm suffering from dimensia by that age?). Lets say home prices go up 3% per year on average. In 30 years, I'd sell the home I'm buying at $300k for $728k. In 30 years, the home you just bought for $150k (assumption above) is worth $364k.
By living in NJ for 30 years, I have the ability to buy and sell a home, pay 6% to the realtors, come to ND, buy your home from you at $364k and still have $320k in my pocket. You could sell your home for $364k, pay the 6% realtors fees, buy the exact same home in ND for $364k and have a new mortgage for $22k (the 6% you'd pay a realtor, not that you'd do that). Or if you choose to move to NJ, your mortgage would be $386k if you wanted to come my way!
So if I want to come to ND, I can buy your home and pocket over $300 grand or buy double your home. Additionally, I come to ND with $1.4M more in my 401(k ) to spend during my golden years. Alternatively, if you come to NJ, you take out a new $386k mortgage to pay off during retirement and have $1.4M less to spend. Hmmm... my retirement is looking awfully good!
Just some math to consider next time you believe ND has a low cost of living. You aren't living a better life there, not financially. It is a quiet place if that's what you like, but it's hardly affordable when you look at the whole picture.
About places to live....I do agree that when comparing prices in the ND bigger cities....the low cost of living idea isnt really there. It was cheaper for me to live in Springfield MO which has 3 times the pop of Grand Forks, but real estate taxes are 1/4 of what they are in ND (yes I live across the river in MN but I lived on the ND side too) and home prices are a bit less. Now that is comparing the larger cities. Now...if you live in a place like Rugby or Harvey you can certainly get a home similar to one in GF-Fargo-BIS quite a bit cheaper with much lower taxes.
For me it was location and climate (yes really) as I like the prairies and the changeable weather and colder winters. I could never live on the east coast but that is me. The farthest I would get would be eastern PA. My job would pay the same regardless of where I live (fed govt...100,000 here and maybe 115,000 at the Mt Holly office). As for homes, etc....in the GF area and likely the same in Fargo and Bismarck....our family gross income is about 150,000...and I feel poor by some people's standards, but that is maybe my wife knows too many doctor's and families. So many people we know....have lake cabins....a boat....snow mobile....ATV....you name it. We have none of that.
But in general I agree with the post....that for many folks here who live on much lower income than you or I to say your life if better on that income because the cost of living is cheaper in ND is not really the truth. It is just as hard to make it here as in most places. I stay for the quality of the people and the other factors I mentioned above. Each person has to make that decision. I grew up in Kentucky and could have stayed there as the cost of living and wages for me would be the same as in Grand Forks. But personally I couldn't stand it there. Glad you found a better spot.
I don't live in ND. But it is one of the few places that I am considering moving to. For me personally, it has little to do with cost of living. I just desperately want to remove myself from the urban/suburban environment. It's driving me insane. Now, granted, there are other rural areas (a few that I am considering), but my main motivation, really, is climate. I hate long, ridiculously hot summers. I don't mind an occasional hot day, but I'm a cold weather person for the most part. So my criteria is cool/cold average temps and rural/small town setting. North Dakota is the first place I researched. I've since looked into northern Maine, UP Michigan, upper LP Michigan, Montana, northeastern Washington, and coastal Oregon/Washington. Right now, Michigan and North Dakota are tops on my list.
The main negative comments I read about ND is the cold and that there is nothing to do. Well, I actually like the cold, so that is not a problem. And I've never really understood the 'nothing to do' thing. I live in a metro area right now and I hate it. The main things I enjoy take me out of the city.I love to hike, jog, xc-ski, and just wander around or drive around in the wilderness/countryside. Other things I enjoy are not dependent on where I live--like to read, write, paint/art, music, study, hobbies, etc. I can do all these things in ND just as easily or more easily than where I am now. I'll bet I won't see gridlock up there and wall-to-wall people either. And I don't need ten dozen stores to choose from. A basic grocery store and other basic shops are fine by me.
I think where a person wants to live is very dependent on their temperament and preferred climate. One man's chunk of coal is another man's gold nugget. If you offered me a two million dollar a year job in the heavily populated east coast states, I would refuse it outright and without question. My sanity is more important to me than is money. If you offered me a job in central ND with a meager but livable wage, I'd take it tomorrow.
I've lived in North Central North Dakota about half of my life (I'm originally from Lancaster PA), and I have often thought about moving back to the east coast or even somewhere like Wisconsin or Ohio. North Dakota is definitely a safe and refreshing place to live, but frankly the landscape and scenery here are so boring that I feel drawn back to the hilly and green east. I love lots of trees, mountains, and the ocean - none of which are in or nearby ND. I'm not particularly fond of the cold weather either, though I make it through the winters fine. After 12 years here, I've pretty much adjusted to the temperature, and like most people I rarely wear a jacket even in 40-50 degree weather. However, I do miss the longer summers and milder winters of PA, as well as the more densely populated areas. I guess ND just isn't for everyone, but I definitely would recommend it to parents with young children. I had a blast growing up here since the age of 12, though I can't really know whether or not my experience would have been the same back east.
I live on the Outer Banks of NC and am moving my family to ND. Why? I am tired of tourists, hot summers and nothing to do. Now I can say nothing to do because I don't swim in the ocean and I don't shop surf shops so unless I travel out of the area I am limited on what I can do. My family wants a rural atmosphere. I want my kids to be able to walk to school or down the street and for it to be okay. I want snowmen and snowangels. I want seasons that do not include the words tourist season and off season. Like one person said one persons lump of coal is anothers gold nugget. OBX to ND here we come!!
I live on the Outer Banks of NC and am moving my family to ND. Why? I am tired of tourists, hot summers and nothing to do. Now I can say nothing to do because I don't swim in the ocean and I don't shop surf shops so unless I travel out of the area I am limited on what I can do. My family wants a rural atmosphere. I want my kids to be able to walk to school or down the street and for it to be okay. I want snowmen and snowangels. I want seasons that do not include the words tourist season and off season. Like one person said one persons lump of coal is anothers gold nugget. OBX to ND here we come!!
Well I wish you luck, a tourist attraction most of ND definitely is not... I'm just curious why you picked ND though... many places in the US fit that criteria, even where I am in South Jersey.
You'll get a rural atmosphere in ND but you won't be within walking distance of school, those things tend to be mutually exclusive. Instead you're likely to get an hour bus ride to and from school.
You can definitely walk the streets in ND but any low crime rate area would allow that and I've never read anything that says you couldn't do that where you are in NC... is there a bad part side of the tracks in NC?
Snowmen and snowangels are possible at times in ND. You will find that most of the winter is far too cold for either. You'll get such a dry snow that making a snowball much less a snowman is impossible. Snow quite quickly becomes more of a nuasance to shovel, drive on, and walk on than it is a pleasure to play in.
You will find everything you desire in ND, but why ND? You can find the same things in other places that also provide more culture, better educational and career opportunities, and more entertainment options within short driving distance. I mean seriously, the west side of North Dakota is about as close the middle of nowhere as you can still get in the US. So what else is there driving your decision, I'm simply curious...
Btw... I am partial to South Jersey. I can enjoy 4 seasons including snow without bitterly cold temperatures, own 3 acres of land, have next to no crime, have a top 3 public school system, explore tons of career opportunities and be within 3 hours driving distance of NYC, Philladelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, and Atlantic City and the Jersey Shore while still really being in a nice rural setting. I'm biased cause I'm here but being aware of that bias I'm curious as to why others feel differently so I can self correct if need be.
the west side of North Dakota is about as close the middle of nowhere as you can still get in the US. .
Well, in my case, that is part of the draw. I don't really want to be totally isolated from everyone--just away from the big cities. I'd like them to be at least a day or two drive away (I'm talking metropolis cities like Chicago, New York, SF, etc). The problem (for me) with being close to big cities, yet still rural, is that they tend to turn into 'bedroom communities,' which results in few services being available and the prices of property skyrocketing (that is what has happened around my area). Also, rural areas that are too close to big cities tend to become a playground for the inhabitants of the cities (I assume this is the case in much of northern Wisconsin, Minnesota, and parts of UP Michigan). Again... driving property prices way up and services offered way down.
The draw of living within driving distance of a small or medium sized town that is isolated, is that all services are right there. There is no driving into the mess of the giant cities. There are areas like this in much of the upper midwest, Michigan, Wyoming, parts of Colorado and New Mexico and Nevada, even Alaska (another place I've looked into).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemmert
I'm biased cause I'm here but being aware of that bias I'm curious as to why others feel differently so I can self correct if need be.
Truthfully, I don't think you need to self correct at all. It's just that different people have different hopes, desires, priorities, aspirations, etc... And that is great, otherwise we'd all want to live on the same little chunk of land!
North Dakota is a beautiful state. But it all depends on what you consider beauty. Some people look at the highrise buildings, the city park, the beltway as beauty.
I don't. I think the bad lands, the Hills, the rolling prairie, the farmers working their land, the ranchers herding their cattle, as the true beauty. I'd rather live in a town of 1000 or less then any city. Matter of fact, the town I live in is 701, but it's not ND.
Here's a part of CD that a lot of people don't find. North Dakota.
Give it a shot and you'll be able to get the Demographics of the area.
Btw... I am partial to South Jersey. I can enjoy 4 seasons including snow without bitterly cold temperatures, own 3 acres of land, have next to no crime, have a top 3 public school system, explore tons of career opportunities and be within 3 hours driving distance of NYC, Philladelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, and Atlantic City and the Jersey Shore while still really being in a nice rural setting. I'm biased cause I'm here but being aware of that bias I'm curious as to why others feel differently so I can self correct if need be.
There is no way I'd want to live where you do and no way in h**l I'd ever want to visit any of the cities you just listed. 3 days drive away might still be too close. Too many people, too many lights, too much noise.
I need to be somewhere that I can see the horizon in at least one direction. I like to watch the thunderstorms forming & moving across the land...you can see them for hours before they get to you. I like the wind and all the different shades of browns and greens. I like being able to look down a long road all the way to the horizon and only see a few other vehicles in those 5-10 miles. Many times there will be no other vehicles. I like knowing all the neighbor's names for a couple blocks around. I live in a town of 6800 but it's spread out in a valley so you can see to the edge of town in all 4 directions, plus it feels & looks like a smaller town because there are the hills forming the edge of the valley that make a block of wild wooded areas all along the S & E sides of town, breaking it up a lot. I like seeing an occasional deer, wild turkey, hawk, eagle, pelican, muskrat or beaver in the yard as well as all the other smaller 'normal' songbirds & other critters (tho I could do without the pocket gopher who has made himself/herself ar home in my flowerbeds this past week).
My husband loves having a 20 minute commute if he walks, 3 minutes if he drives.
Just some math to consider next time you believe ND has a low cost of living. You aren't living a better life there, not financially. It is a quiet place if that's what you like, but it's hardly affordable when you look at the whole picture.
you make a very good case, but you seem to be equating "cost of living" with "perks of a higher paying job". the only argument you're really making is for how much better a life is when one has more financial resources; that's not on the table.
many things are less expensive here: used cars, food, insurance, homes, daycare, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. i guess it's shaping up that almost everything here is less expensive.
here we have very little crime, little traffic congestion, little pollution, and better schools. there are probably some other things to consider, but those are the easiest for me to remember. i will never make a case for someone to move here, unless they fall into one of four categories:
elderly, with children, college-bound, alcoholic.
congratulations on clarifying something that all of us already know well. while you're at it, you might want to mention how wet water is, how many inches are in a foot, and who the first president of the usa was. in the end, it's (mostly) a values judgement.
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