Home heating questions (Washington, Columbia, Rome: mineral rights, loft, new home)

[Abundantly_Above]

Thanks for all the replies. I am not interested in changing heat sources at this point. I just want to know how to save money with what we've got. If our bills are outrageous we could consider switching for next winter, but it seems silly to invest a ton of money into changing to another system now.

DavidWebb, we turn the fireplace off at night around 10 pm. The bedroom is still warm from it when we go upstairs and the room doesn't get cold until 2 or 3 in the morning. I was setting the bedroom baseboard heat on 65, but this week I bought a warmer duvet and now we leave it on 55. In the morning when we go downstairs, we turn off the bedroom baseboard and switch back to the propane fireplace in the living room. It's on a remote control which I just figured out, and now we leave it set on about 72 for the whole day and evening, unless we go out (then it's off.) We don't use the baseboard heat in any of the rooms besides the bedroom at night, though on very cold days I've set the downstairs bathroom to 55.

TheCoalman and Wells5, it's a propane fireplace, no chimney, no wood. It has a blower which works very well. The house was built in the late 1980s but seems to be pretty well-insulated with Anderson windows and sliding doors. I don't feel any drafts and there aren't any cold spots in the house.

Fisheye, thanks for the link on leaving your home for vacation. We are going to call the previous home owner's plumber (he has been servicing the house for many years, and should be able to give us a better understanding of what needs to be done. He used to leave the thermostat on 50 and turn off the water for the elderly home owner in the winter when she was in Florida, and came by periodically to pour anti-freeze down the pipes.)

PacoMartin, thanks for propane/electric price explanation and conversion rate, very helpful.

Bradykp, we will check into weatherization. I'm sure there is more we could do even though the house seems pretty well-insulated.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Abundantly_Above

but it seems silly to invest a ton of money into changing to another system now.

Unless you have intentions of moving soon then it's something you should consider now. For example you can buy a brand new stoker for about $2K, the coal might be $800 to $1000 and if you have someone install it then it might cost another $1000. That's $4000, if you're spending 4 or 5 hundred a month on electric or propane to heat with you're only going to be $1K in the hole this year. Next yesar it will be cheaper and after that you're saving at least $1 ro 1.5K a year.

[quiet life]

Originally Posted by Wells5

Abundantly Above, firstly is your new house properly insulated: exterior doors, windows, walls (2X6 studs), attic, basement? Depending on when it was built, it may not be properly insulated even with electric baseboards and a good part of the heat could be escaping. Pike and Wayne Counties operate a weatherization assistance program (Weatherization Assistance Program), which subsidizes weatherization for low to moderate income families.

The propane fireplaces that I've seen are mostly for show and are not very efficient. What kind of an exhaust does it have? Does a pipe run out the side of the house or is there a chimney? I don't think that you could put a wood or coal insert in your fireplace. Inserts are made for conventional wood fireplaces with chimneys. You could install a new wood or coal stove for supplemental heat in a central part of your house, but that will be costly especially since building codes require a stainlees steel flue pipe.

It's a shame that natural gas is not available in your location. Just to give you an idea of how much you could save if you did have access to natural gas, the ratio of the energy equivalent of a standard unit of nat gas (100 cubic feet) to propane (1 gallon) is 1.088. That is nat gas has more energy per standard unit than a standard unit of propane. UGI, the gas supplier for Milford, is currently charging $0.68919 per 100 cubic feet of gas. If we divide $0.68919 by 1.088 we get $0.633 which is the current nat gas cost equivalent of 1 gallon of propane. You're paying over 4 times as much for propane as you would if nat gas were available to heat your home. (Note: The equivalent price of nat gas does not include distribution charges, which increases the nat gas cost.)

Wells,
I didn't realize that Milford has natural gas. Is it all of Milford? Interesting only that part of Pike has NG Does the NG company make the decision to lay pipeline in certain areas for service? How does that work?

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by quiet life

Wells,
I didn't realize that Milford has natural gas. Is it all of Milford? Interesting only that part of Pike has NG Does the NG company make the decision to lay pipeline in certain areas for service? How does that work?

They'll never get a return on their investment unless their is enough houses, e.g. if you have a house every quarter of mile they'll probably never make a profit on them. I don't know exactly what the house per sq mile is they need, that is just an example. Becsue of the expansion of the gas industry many of these smaller communities in more rural areas may end up getting it but that is only where you're going to have a large concentration of houses. Montrose for example.

While on the topic I often wonder about the infrastructure in places like the Wyoming Valley becsue it's been available there forever. I know we were finding gas pipes in the walls of house we owned in West Pittston and that house was probably built somewhere between 1900 and 1920. That was just for lighting.

[Wells5]

Originally Posted by quiet life

Wells,
I didn't realize that Milford has natural gas. Is it all of Milford? Interesting only that part of Pike has NG Does the NG company make the decision to lay pipeline in certain areas for service? How does that work?

Natural gas is available in Milford Boro and along route 209 to and including Matamoras. No other availability.

Coalman, are you sure about Montrose being piped for nat gas? I know that Tunkhannock has been trying to get piped for nat gas for years and so far nothing- and the town sits right in the heart of the Marcellus shale.

UGI is supposedly the nat gas supplier for both Pike and Wyoming Counties. I would suggest that if enough people speak out, UGI may consider extending their distribution system. Right now, UGI is concentrating on expanding their propane and butane distribution businesses in Europe.

Buying a few shares of UGI will gain you admittance to the annual meeting of shareholders, which will be held this year on January 30 in Valley Forge. There you could confront the chairman, Lon Greenberg, and ask why he hasn't been expanding the system.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by Wells5

Coalman, are you sure about Montrose being piped for nat gas?

No but if I was a betting man I'd bet both Tunkhannock and Montrose get it.

[quiet life]

40 bucks a share at this point. On the high end of their 52 week high. Guestimating NG prices are climbing

[pegleg]

Newer baseboard heaters are much better than the old ones, but none are really good. In Western NC, we have a heat pump with an extra booster (60 Amp) for temperatures below 20F (not very often). You have to be sure to have an electric-free source of heat for power outages. We have unvented propane and have 103,000 BTUs for a 2-story, 2600 sq. foot house. Unvented is 99.9% efficient, BUT is not the ideal heat source: we don't run it when we aren't home. We're planning to retire to NEPA or southern tier of NY when we retire (family) so we're also investigating the best heating options.

[Abundantly_Above]

Can someone clarify the question about which rooms to leave the heat on when we're away? Someone upthread mentioned it's not necessary to heat the upstairs of the home--how come those pipes won't freeze?

Downstairs, we leave on the baseboard heat in the bathroom, laundry room, and great room (living/dining/kitchen) but not the downstairs two bedrooms. Should those be left on, too, or does it depend on whether the pipes run under those rooms?

Sorry for my ignorance in these matters.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by Abundantly_Above

Can someone clarify the question about which rooms to leave the heat on when we're away? Someone upthread mentioned it's not necessary to heat the upstairs of the home--how come those pipes won't freeze?

Downstairs, we leave on the baseboard heat in the bathroom, laundry room, and great room (living/dining/kitchen) but not the downstairs two bedrooms. Should those be left on, too, or does it depend on whether the pipes run under those rooms?

Sorry for my ignorance in these matters.

How did you make out with the plumber? He should have answered that question for you. It is hard to comment without knowing where your pipes are located or what insulation you have. We do get some very cold nights and I don't want you to come back from vacation to a mess.