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Northeastern Pennsylvania Scranton, Wilkes-Barre, Pocono area
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:02 AM
 
145 posts, read 225,755 times
Reputation: 95

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abundantly_Above View Post
I thought this was an interesting statement and have been giving it some thought. You don't say what part of NEPA you're from, and by the rest of your post, it doesn't really sound like the Poconos (which is the only area of NEPA I am familiar with). But I think your statement about people not knowing they're lower middle class is true in the Poconos and that's something that makes the area unique. This is my take on why.

Most people here are not making a lot of money, but you really wouldn't know it by looking at them or where they live. They have single family homes on decent-sized lots (because housing is cheap here) and 2 cars (out of sheer necessity). They commute into the city where other people making their salary fit a family of four in a one bedroom apartment and having even one car is a fantasy.

Perception of one's wealth is very much based on comparison. Research has shown that most people would rather make 40K if everyone else made 30K then make 75K when everyone else made 90K.

In the Poconos, people have a home, land, and cars, and none of their peers in the city do. They are admired for "living the dream." So even though they are technically lower middle class, they have achieved something most lower income people have not and cannot because of the cost of housing.

Therefore they continue to make the sacrifice of commuting and believe they are doing well, because in many ways, they are. Having lived in the city, they know what true poverty looks like, and what they're seeing around them in the Poconos is far from it.

This doesn't make sense to me. If someone is commuting into the city for their job, and making 100k, that's pretty high for the area. I would consider that upper-middle class for NEPA considering the lower COL. Whereas where I am on Long island, it's middle class.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:28 PM
 
1,193 posts, read 2,378,605 times
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Most folks commuting into the city are working trade/office jobs and not making $100K. I could be wrong, maybe some of the longtime union guys are, but generally speaking they're still commuting because those jobs, in PA, would pay half what they can get in the city.

And bear in mind, it's around $600 a month for a bus ticket, more if you drive. Plus the tax hit is a nightmare (NYC taxes, plus NY state -- you don't get it all back -- plus PA, plus local, plus fed, and there is no bargain when all is said and done).
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:33 PM
 
104 posts, read 188,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gettingouttahere View Post
Most folks commuting into the city are working trade/office jobs and not making $100K.
Right. 100K for NEPA would definitely be upper middle class. Most people are not making that kind of money. I think I read that the average household income in Pike County is under $65K.

Most people who can afford to live somewhere nicer than NEPA do so. My husband and I chose not to because 1) we like to live well below our means and save/invest most of our money, 2) we love the mountains and the beauty of the Poconos, and 3) we like the people here.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:39 PM
 
342 posts, read 794,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Since your husband would be teaching during the normal school year the weather becomes a huge issue when it comes to commute time.
A sizable snow storm could very well keep your husband on the road for many hours during that hypothetical day.

You also have traffic from your outer metro entrance to queens which by itself becomes lengthy.
This could keep your husband staying in queens during the week due to the drain the commute causes him.

These are major issues that keep many from relocating to NEPA that plann on commuting back and forth to the city.

I teach in the Stroudsburg/east burg area. We have had 10 days off due to weather. They were not passable conditions. Your husband would not be making it into the city to teach on those days. You mentioned he may have HS hours. He would need to wake up by 3:30 AM to make it to a queens HS. Look for jobs in the area of Stroudsburg first
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:06 PM
 
2,437 posts, read 2,718,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gettingouttahere View Post
Most folks commuting into the city are working trade/office jobs and not making $100K. I could be wrong, maybe some of the longtime union guys are, but generally speaking they're still commuting because those jobs, in PA, would pay half what they can get in the city.

And bear in mind, it's around $600 a month for a bus ticket, more if you drive. Plus the tax hit is a nightmare (NYC taxes, plus NY state -- you don't get it all back -- plus PA, plus local, plus fed, and there is no bargain when all is said and done).
I work an office job and while not too far from the 100k when I factor in my union benefits (free health care for one) to take a job in NEPA is at least a 30% pay cut after my commuting costs. Paying into medical would probably put me closer to a 50% cut. And more than likely no union.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:13 PM
 
2 posts, read 2,586 times
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Abundantly Above,

I respectfully disagree with your statement:

"In the Poconos, people have a home, land, and cars, and none of their peers in the city do. They are admired for "living the dream." So even though they are technically lower middle class, they have achieved something most lower income people have not and cannot because of the cost of housing.

Therefore they continue to make the sacrifice of commuting and believe they are doing well, because in many ways, they are. Having lived in the city, they know what true poverty looks like, and what they're seeing around them in the Poconos is far from it."

What you stated above is exactly the problem with the Poconos, and specifically Monroe County. I was not immune to it either, as I made the same mistake as indicated in a previous post. What you described above sounds to me like greed and ignorance. So your from the city, and you want to show your peers that you can "live the dream" and buy a huge house in the Poconos. Material possessions as you stated, "home, land, and cars", but AT WHAT COST?? What is perceived as living the dream has turned into a nightmare for a majority of folks who uprooted their families and moved to the Poconos. Long days, cold winters, higher than anticipated taxes, dues, utility costs, maintenance on their cars and homes, weather issues, anxiety/stress from commuting, less time with their wive's and children. And what does all of this get you? Asthetically, a much more pleasing and beautiful environment on the surface. However, in reality the folks you thought you left behind are your neighbors once again feuled by the same greed and ignorance. This is only my opinion from my own experience and is not intended to offend anyone. If I can save one or two families from making the same mistake that we made, then my fingers to these keys made some difference.
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:09 AM
 
452 posts, read 679,105 times
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Well, seems like I'm not the only one these says to warn people not to make the mistake of moving to NEPA. Too bad it appears that some who come here seeking advice, have already made up their mind.
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:08 AM
 
145 posts, read 225,755 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt.Trips View Post
Well, seems like I'm not the only one these says to warn people not to make the mistake of moving to NEPA. Too bad it appears that some who come here seeking advice, have already made up their mind.

If you're talking about me, I think I posted somewhere we decided to stay on LI.
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:02 PM
 
104 posts, read 188,734 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifesaver4 View Post
Abundantly Above,

I respectfully disagree with your statement:

"In the Poconos, people have a home, land, and cars, and none of their peers in the city do. They are admired for "living the dream." So even though they are technically lower middle class, they have achieved something most lower income people have not and cannot because of the cost of housing.

Therefore they continue to make the sacrifice of commuting and believe they are doing well, because in many ways, they are. Having lived in the city, they know what true poverty looks like, and what they're seeing around them in the Poconos is far from it."

What you stated above is exactly the problem with the Poconos, and specifically Monroe County. I was not immune to it either, as I made the same mistake as indicated in a previous post. What you described above sounds to me like greed and ignorance. So your from the city, and you want to show your peers that you can "live the dream" and buy a huge house in the Poconos. Material possessions as you stated, "home, land, and cars", but AT WHAT COST?? What is perceived as living the dream has turned into a nightmare for a majority of folks who uprooted their families and moved to the Poconos. Long days, cold winters, higher than anticipated taxes, dues, utility costs, maintenance on their cars and homes, weather issues, anxiety/stress from commuting, less time with their wive's and children. And what does all of this get you? Asthetically, a much more pleasing and beautiful environment on the surface. However, in reality the folks you thought you left behind are your neighbors once again feuled by the same greed and ignorance. This is only my opinion from my own experience and is not intended to offend anyone. If I can save one or two families from making the same mistake that we made, then my fingers to these keys made some difference.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I do understand what you are saying--my husband and I work from home most of the time, and we would have NEVER moved to the Poconos if we had to commute to the city on a daily basis. Once or twice a week in the off-hours has been fine for us.

I would, however, disagree with the statement that living the dream "has turned into a nightmare for the majority of folks." I just don't think that's true. I have yet to meet anyone outside of these message forums that regrets moving to the Poconos. Granted, we have only been here 6 months, but every single person we've talked to has said they liked living here.

There just aren't any easy answers. There's a tremendous cost to lower/middle class folks living in the city, too: outrageous rent and utilities, no hope of home ownership, long commutes via subway/bus, problematic schools, no safe space for kids to play outside, etc. etc. Life is hard for any middle class or lower middle class person who works in the city. We all have to make serious sacrifices to our quality of life.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Hanover , Virginia
331 posts, read 635,830 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gettingouttahere View Post
Most folks commuting into the city are working trade/office jobs and not making $100K. I could be wrong, maybe some of the longtime union guys are, but generally speaking they're still commuting because those jobs, in PA, would pay half what they can get in the city.

And bear in mind, it's around $600 a month for a bus ticket, more if you drive. Plus the tax hit is a nightmare (NYC taxes, plus NY state -- you don't get it all back -- plus PA, plus local, plus fed, and there is no bargain when all is said and done).
The tax thing you mentioned is inaccurate. Only NYC residents pay NYC tax. NY state and PA state have an agreement that tax paid to NY goes toward your PA tax, which usually results in a tax refund from NYS. Local also takes your taxes paid to NYS into account (at least Berkheimer).
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