Pedestrians in one spot in NoVa - some empirical data (Annandale: crimes, how much)

[brooklynborndad]

So this AM i slept late and missed my usual 29G bus. DW was headed to errands and gave me a ride to Braddock and LRT, where I can pick up the 17M. This is on the eastern, inner edge of Annandale, between "old Annandale" and Landmark.

I decided to do a little quantitative research. I counted pedestrians passing (both directions, both sides of LRT) and passenger vehicles passing (east bound only, though traffic was mostly balanced)

In the 4 to 5 minutes or so from when I thought of counting, till my bus came - I observed 5 pedestrians. In the same time, I counted 112 passenger vehicles east bound only. Conservatively, there had to be at least about 200 passenger vehicles in both directions (counting only vehicles that passed me on LRT, not vehicles crossing the intersection on Braddock, or going between Braddock and the part of LRT west of Braddock)

Note well - it was bright, sunny, dry, mild temp. OPTIMAL conditions for walking.

Of the 5 pedestrians, 4 were headed to the busstop, a key pedestrian draw. The fifth was a woman pushing a stroller (I suppose the baby could be called a 6th, but in that case we would need to estimate the number of passengers in the 200 or so vehicles).

To me this is "light" pedestrian traffic. Its what I mean when I say theres not a lot of walking here. Not that no one walks, or that its impossible to find a picture of someone walking. Note also, this is more pedestrian traffic relative to vehicles than I think you would see on LRT west of the beltway (which has the same or more vehicles, and fewer pedestians).

Its not close to what you would find in a similarly busy street in what I would call an urban area (yes, there are side streets where you would see few people walking - thats why you need the vehicle counts, to normalize) I do not think it is atypical of Fairfax county.

I would love to be informed that the ratio of pedestrians to vehicles in Loudoun county is significantly higher than this.

Note also, I do not thing there is anything wrong with the people in this area. I suspect many of those drivers, when they arrive at jobs in DC or Crystal city, walk during lunch hour, etc. The issues are density, overall layout of different land uses, and specific impediments to walking in street design.

[normie]

Funny you should ask. I found myself doing a similar thing last night since this has been a topic of interest lately.

I went to see Chicago at Wolftrap. (Hey, don't snicker. The recordings may be a little syrupy but they put on a good show, especially if you like brass.) So, getting back to my story, when we turned down Towlston I started thinking about the question over whether or not there were pedestrians in Vienna so I decided to see if I saw any on Towlston. For what it's worth, on the short stretch from Leesburg Pike to Wolftrap we passed 4 people walking in the Shrouse neighborhood. Five, if you count the kid in the stroller. The drive was only a few blocks and took about 90 seconds, so that's five people spotted in less than two minutes.

To me, the big issue is sidewalks. The areas that don't seem to have many walkers are the ones without sidewalks. If you're looking for a house here, that's something to consider. I'd only look for a neighborhood with sidewalks (unless you just happen to see many pedestrians walking in the street).

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by normie

I went to see Chicago at Wolftrap. (Hey, don't snicker. The recordings may be a little syrupy but they put on a good show, especially if you like brass.) So, getting back to my story, when we turned down Towlston I started thinking about the question over whether or not there were pedestrians in Vienna so I decided to see if I saw any on Towlston. For what it's worth, on the short stretch from Leesburg Pike to Wolftrap we passed 4 people walking in the Shrouse neighborhood. Five, if you count the kid in the stroller. The drive was only a few blocks and took about 90 seconds, so that's five people spotted in less than two minutes.

that would be about double the frequency of pedestrians I saw on LRT this AM (5 in about 5 minutes) . I assume those were not people walking FROM the concert at Wolftrap?

What was the time of day, and the weather conditions?

Im guessing leaving a concert at Wolftrap the vehicles traffic was even higher than what i observed.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by normie

To me, the big issue is sidewalks.

thats the de minimus requirement (i mean unless its a country lane with minimal vehicle traffic, but we are talking NoVa)

Its a difference between the post -1990 developments and many of the 1950 to 1990 developments (Im thinking of Mantua, but I think sidewalk free areas can be found all over Fairfax, and elsewhere in NoVa)

Sometime I would like to do a photo tour of all the impediments to walking (even where sidewalks exist) on LRT in Annandale.

[normie]

LOL we were at Wolftrap until after 11:00. I wasn't looking for pedestrians on the drive home, who would be out walking at that hour of the night?

This was on the way TO the concert, probably around 6 last night. Traffic on Towslton wasn't heavy yet since we like to go early to beat the crowds. I really have no idea how many cars were on the road, but I'm not sure I think that's relevant. The walkers were local residents walking in their neighborhood, but the traffic would have been people who weren't local residents going to a destination down the road (Wolftrap). They weren't even headed in the same direction. The pedestrians were mostly walking north, the traffic was driving south to the concert. Apples and oranges.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by normie

. I really have no idea how many cars were on the road, but I'm not sure I think that's relevant. .

its the only way I have to normalize the amount of pedestrian movement. I mean 5 people in 2 minutes is not a lot compared to most main drags in cities, or in our dense walkable "suburbs" like say clarendon. OTOH it might be high for a side street in Clarendon. I think amount of vehicle traffic is a pretty simple, pretty good way, to judge whether a given road is a "main drag" and how much of a main drag it is.

Of course such a metric won't work so well on the road to Wolftrap, I guess. But thats the example you gave.


"LOL we were at Wolftrap until after 11:00. I wasn't looking for pedestrians on the drive home, who would be out walking at that hour of the night? "

In Clarendon or Old town Alex, quite a few, of course. Im pretty sure Ive seen people walking on that road after leaving a concert at Wolftrap, walking home from the concert I guess. Its been a while since Ive been to a concert or show there, so I dont remember exactly. Walking late to a parked car or all the way home from a late event does happen in this region. After the July 4th fireworks at Fairfax HS theres always a HUGE bunch of people walking down Old Lee Highway - certainly the most usage those sidewalks get any day of the year. You can look around and imagine what the area would be like if people walked all the time.


People DRIVE after 11 PM. Why is it so odd that someone would walk at that hour?

[persnicketygal]

What's there to walk to, anyway, in that area of LRT? Home Depot? Nope, need a car generally speaking if you're buying more than a couple of things there.
7-Eleven?
Five Guys or anything else in that corner shopping plaza where the gas station is?
The new laundromat that replaced the aquarium store?

Even walking from the Salvation Army months ago, where I donated a car, back home westward to one of the subdivisions is not pedestrian-friendly. There isn't a sidewalk per se. You can follow a walking path for a little bit, but that's really part of the Pinecrest housing subdivision, and it's certainly not a straight path.

I ended up walking in the street. And that's in a 40mph zone where many drivers go a bit faster.

When Whole Foods was in that corner shopping strip where Staples is now, I did walk there twice or so.

For a pleasure walk, I'd go wander Greensprings, or for walking the dog, my subdivision has good walking paths. But walk along LRT? Absolutely no reason to. Even if sidewalks were plentiful, there's nothing to make it enjoyable.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by persnicketygal

What's there to walk to, anyway, in that area of LRT? Home Depot? Nope, need a car generally speaking if you're buying more than a couple of things there.
7-Eleven?
Five Guys or anything else in that corner shopping plaza where the gas station is?
The new laundromat that replaced the aquarium store?

Even walking from the Salvation Army months ago, where I donated a car, back home westward to one of the subdivisions is not pedestrian-friendly. There isn't a sidewalk per se. You can follow a walking path for a little bit, but that's really part of the Pinecrest housing subdivision, and it's certainly not a straight path.

I ended up walking in the street. And that's in a 40mph zone where many drivers go a bit faster.

When Whole Foods was in that corner shopping strip where Staples is now, I did walk there twice or so.

For a pleasure walk, I'd go wander Greensprings, or for walking the dog, my subdivision has good walking paths. But walk along LRT? Absolutely no reason to. Even if sidewalks were plentiful, there's nothing to make it enjoyable.

"The issues are density, overall layout of different land uses, and specific impediments to walking in street design."

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by persnicketygal

For a pleasure walk, I'd go wander Greensprings

we've done that circuit MANY, MANY times.

[Caladium]

Interesting idea, but IMO there are too many variables to make cars a reliable measuring stick for pedestrians.

For example, right now I'm in Chicago for the week. Using your measuring stick, I could claim that downtown Chicago has few pedestrians (even though most people I know would laugh at such a ridiculous notion).

The reason I'd get such skewed results is I walk first thing in the morning, before the local stores and restaurants are open. Also, I prefer a path that doesn't go by many office buildings. Hardly anyone else is out on the sidewalks at that time of day, but traffic is already heavy on a workday. So does that mean downtown Chicago has few pedestrians? In other words, time of day, weather, recent news events/crimes, gas prices, and the particular route you choose can all radically affect the outcome. Also the day of the week (a Sunday will have less traffic but more pedestrians than a weekday), and even the month of the year. Back in Nova a large percentage of families vacation during the last two weeks of August. You'll see more walkers after they return in September. Even random chance can affect the findings.

Intriguing approach, but I really don't think measuring against cars tells you anything. Just my opinion, of course.