615-foot Tysons skyscraper proposal, tallest in DC, MD and VA (Fairfax: sale, apartments)

[leighland]

Originally Posted by paytonc

Yes, not coincidentally right where the military radio tower is.
[url=http://peakbagger.com/peak.aspx?pid=7645]Fairfax County High Point - Peakbagger.com[/url]

The highest un-natural elevation is the landfill off I-66, west of the county government center.

Ahh thank you

Ugly tower!

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by aquest1

https://ggwash.org/view/63468/615-fo...virginia-md-dc

This development will be a part of the the View at Tysons. To be precise, the building will be the tallest between Philadelphia and Charlotte. I guess it's not surprising what with Capital One tower at 470-feet under construction down the way. But why have such a tall building in an area that isn't really a bona fide city? Is this the right direction for Tysons and are we happy with this proposal?

Good. Maybe that will inspire someone down here to build a supertall. Virginia Beach will be in it's feelings that someone else in Virginia has a taller skyscraper. Should be interesting.

Doesn't necessarily have to be Tysons, but I love to see skyscrapers in Virginia. Skyline is boring enough around here as it is.

I would be more concerned if the economic activity that was the catalyst for that level of construction was not sustainable.

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by leighland

He would discuss the 60% vacancy office rate in Fairfax County and would point out that this is a sign that the empty building trend is gonna reverse big time and superfast.

I don't see why Tysons should be height capped. We are not DC in any way shape or form.

I read that the highest natural elevation in the county is at the Greensborough Metro locale.

I also know that if you stand on the Tysons Corner mall patio next to Eddie V's you can see the Washington Cathedral. For now....

Wow, would I now?

First of all Office vacancy is 16% in Tysons, not 60% but awesome stats random internet person.

https://intysons.com/tysons-billions...-growing-city/

Secondly, that 16% is largely constituted by office buildings in suburban strip malls lower than 3 stories with terrible multi modal access. In Tysons, on the metro line itself, the vacancy rate is in single digits, and for new buildings it is dangerously low, which means the market needs more or the leases will go up (bad for smaller businesses). Why are you against small business? Do you think people paying $60psf for office space is a good thing, because I can assure it isn't for small businesses.

Thirdly, the big tall tower in question isn't even an office, its a condo. The condo rate vacancy in Fairfax County is non-existent, there are almost none for sale given a county of 1.2 million people. Especially as that population is becoming polarized towards retirees and new career folks out of college, condos are an important product type we need in real estate.

Just my opinion though

[leighland]

Oh I am not teasing you Tysons! I can see how I read 16 and it translated to 60 lol.

Was I thinking of the county numbers instead?

See, you need to be on more often

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

W... In Tysons, on the metro line itself, the vacancy rate is in single digits, and for new buildings it is dangerously low, which means the market needs more or the leases will go up (bad for smaller businesses). Why are you against small business? Do you think people paying $60psf for office space is a good thing, because I can assure it isn't for small businesses....

This is a great point and one that raises a question for me:

I recently read in a recent issue of Washingtonian (an article about the ongoing, regular loss of Arlington restaurants) that the current commercial lease rate in Clarendon is $50-60/SF. Off the top of my head, this has proved too high for Willow, Water and Wall, Tallulah, Boulevard Woodgrille, and the flash-in-the-pan Kajagoogoo of Orange Line eateries, Sehkraft. All of those being independently owned high-end (or middle-high in the case of the latter two) restaurants.

To me it seems obvious that these lease rates are too high for anything other than chain restaurants (hence the triumph of the Cheesecake Flabtery, looming large over Clarendon like a gussied-up Shoneys.). Sure, some of these places may have had iffy food or service, but some had been around a long time. And there's a definite trend in Arlington of non-chain restaurants going under in the last five years.

So it would seem that development, by making an area more desirable, often raises commercial leases higher than it does the supply of commercial space. If that's true in Clarendon, what's different about Tysons? (Perhaps more supply in that there are fewer height restrictions?)

(For the record, I will admit I have on rare occasions enjoyed the Cheesecake Fracktory, though with all the beige and travertine, it feels like eating in some high-end McMansion bathroom.)

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by leighland

Oh I am not teasing you Tysons! I can see how I read 16 and it translated to 60 lol.

Was I thinking of the county numbers instead?

See, you need to be on more often

By the way, I am in general agreement that the overall office landscape is still saturated. My thoughts on that is not that we shouldn't build more office (we should, especially at metro stations). The old offices need to be reused. They are in great locations in some cases for retail, schools, public spaces. The bones are all there, and as shown at the Baileys school project, it is possible to reuse at far less cost than building a new public building. That way we can slowly start making a more sustainable land use where jobs are clustered where access is available from more than one form of transportation.

County numbers, for info, are about 19% if I recall. Definitely not 60%. If a place had 60% commercial vacancy, it would be failed, a ghost town of jobs. That is simply not the case in Fairfax, and god willing never will be because all of us would be hit hard by that.

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

This is a great point and one that raises a question for me:

I recently read in a recent issue of Washingtonian (an article about the ongoing, regular loss of Arlington restaurants) that the current commercial lease rate in Clarendon is $50-60/SF. Off the top of my head, this has proved too high for Willow, Water and Wall, Tallulah, Boulevard Woodgrille, and the flash-in-the-pan Kajagoogoo of Orange Line eateries, Sehkraft. All of those being independently owned high-end (or middle-high in the case of the latter two) restaurants.

To me it seems obvious that these lease rates are too high for anything other than chain restaurants (hence the triumph of the Cheesecake Flabtery, looming large over Clarendon like a gussied-up Shoneys.). Sure, some of these places may have had iffy food or service, but some had been around a long time. And there's a definite trend in Arlington of non-chain restaurants going under in the last five years.

So it would seem that development, by making an area more desirable, often raises commercial leases higher than it does the supply of commercial space. If that's true in Clarendon, what's different about Tysons? (Perhaps more supply in that there are fewer height restrictions?)

(For the record, I will admit I have on rare occasions enjoyed the Cheesecake Fracktory, though with all the beige and travertine, it feels like eating in some high-end McMansion bathroom.)

Carlingtonian, read up on the market effect of property and price filtering. I concur, marquee will always draw marquee lease rates. Whatever is the top of the line for an area will garner the upper end of interested investment. But more construction can 1) slow the growth rate in cost of those spaces 2) make properties which clearly don't have the same amenities {metro access, new Class A facilities, walkable region, co-located with big companies} charge less for lease. This is happening in Tysons as we speak, many 20-30 year old offices, despite being pretty close to metro but not in prime condition or locations, are starting to dip into the low 20s for psf. That is a good thing. It's possible because the Tysons Towers and 1775s of the world have set what the going rate for top of the line are, and the other buildings (many of which long ago paid off financiers and are now in pure profit) now adjust to maintain occupancy.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

Carlingtonian, read up on the market effect of property and price filtering. I concur, marquee will always draw marquee lease rates. Whatever is the top of the line for an area will garner the upper end of interested investment. But more construction can 1) slow the growth rate in cost of those spaces 2) make properties which clearly don't have the same amenities {metro access, new Class A facilities, walkable region, co-located with big companies} charge less for lease. This is happening in Tysons as we speak, many 20-30 year old offices, despite being pretty close to metro but not in prime condition or locations, are starting to dip into the low 20s for psf. That is a good thing. It's possible because the Tysons Towers and 1775s of the world have set what the going rate for top of the line are, and the other buildings (many of which long ago paid off financiers and are now in pure profit) now adjust to maintain occupancy.

So as far as Clarendon, are you saying you believe the cause of the overly high commercial lease rates there is a lack of enough development?

[Hal Roach]

Hey Tyson, do they use FAR, in zoning regulations (ratio of floor space to land space) in Tysons, or is it more height restriction oriented with a phone book full of specific details for buildings. I have been following the bidding process on the sale of an old building on 3.1 acres in Bangkok. It is the old Australian Embassy. They said since it has 220 feet of main road frontage, it can have a FAR of 10, or 1.3 million square feet. The Empire State building has a FAR of 25, but that is because they changed the laws in 1961. Looking like 200 million USD for the three acres.

[Old Guard]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

Just my opinion though

Well look who is finally reporting for duty.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

I recently read in a recent issue of Washingtonian (an article about the ongoing, regular loss of Arlington restaurants) that the current commercial lease rate in Clarendon is $50-60/SF. Off the top of my head, this has proved too high for Willow, Water and Wall, Tallulah, Boulevard Woodgrille, and the flash-in-the-pan Kajagoogoo of Orange Line eateries, Sehkraft. All of those being independently owned high-end (or middle-high in the case of the latter two) restaurants.

I am sure tysonsengineer knows a lot more about this than I do but I have never understood the need to raise the rents so high that it drives out successful service industries. Especially unique or "historic" places. I would figure that having these kinds of mom and pop businesses would be appreciated as they make the area unique and give it history that separates it from the other sanitized, developed, areas.

Last year one of my friends sold their DC house and moved to Baltimore. So now I go up to Baltimore a couple of times a month. I really like Baltimore because of their unique eateries and neighborhoods. They have a lot of mom and pop places that add charm and history. I like that.

I am not against chains and large box stores. I like them. But they should be an option among many, not the only option. When I travel now it seems like most cities are the same and I have to look to find what makes the area unique.