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If anything, you and the posters who are arguing against me think far worse of those types of people than I do. You think that they can't help it, it's their environment. You pity them & you pidgeonhole them forever. I, on the other hand, think that they control the outcome of their own lives - and they can choose their own paths.
When grown adults continue to make bad lifestyle choices - why should it be excused away because of their socioeconomical level? You cannot for one second tell me that a grown adult doesn't understand the difference between good and bad and right and wrong.
Can you now please point out where I excused their actions?
Don't accuse me of pitying anybody. Obviously these people have control over their own lives. The question is why people from certain areas tend to choose certain outcomes.
Do you care about the fate of poor and declining neighborhoods in your city? Do you think that something should be done to improve the situations in these places? Not even for their sake; I should remind you that if a neighborhood improves in your city, it gives YOU access to the amenities of the area, and increases the value of YOUR property, whether it's down the block or 15 miles away.
Short of complete razing, any effort to analyze and improve a problematic urban neighborhood must take the root causes of the problems into play.
The sum of a large number of individual's choices does matter. It is the foundation of our economy and our political system.
If all of a sudden, kids around the world started waking up and chopping a finger off at the rate of, say, 1 per 20, would you sit here and discuss how these kids made poor choices? Or would it spark some curiosity in your brain as to what is the cause of this trend?
I grew up in Hammond, relocated to Griffith for my Highschool years, struggled for a many years in public safety, and then moved on, out of state. I have many family members in East Chicago and Hammond, and get back to the region frequently.
Each time I return the future looks more and more bleak I was there in October, and could not believe the reduction in the population, middle of the workday, the boulevard in Hammond in EC was dead, the Borman, was half of the daily commuting population, and the area, seems to be oozing desperation.
As for Gary, it is really sad, I remember the decline of Gary, I remember Sears, and Montgomery Wards, and other Major retailers on Broadway and fifth, Mayor Thatcher, truly stuck the knife in the hear of that city, and successive city administrators just finished the jobs.
The region is a shining example of community leaders failing to appropriately evaluating and adjust his or her strategic plan in accordance with the ever changing political and economic climate that one finds themself competing in, it is pretty sad, when a the history channel utilizes the city of Gary to illustrate what life without human would be like. This should be enough said for anyone concerning the future of the region.
My prediction, more and more people will move to the western burbs as the steel mill dinosaurs breathe their last breaths, and the casinos will suck whats life is left out of the region, and more crime, and desparity will befall.
Sorry to be so pessismistic, but my whole life, I heard plans of the third airports, trying to attract a major sports franchise, and attracting new industry, sorry, but corrupt polticians have killed the region, plain and simple
I worry very much about the future of NW Indiana. Enough to be seroiusly considering leaving. Job outlook is so bleak. My husband has an MBA and has now been looking for around 1.5 years and nothing. the few calls he has had told him he is overqualified. I have a degree also and see no other option then to commute to Chicago. If I saw hope in the area in wouldn't bother me but I really don't see much at all. So many homes for sale (at least in Valpo) and not moving or going really cheap. I'm having such a hard time with remembering why exactly we moved here. I do think alot of it is the aging population and the serious animosity towards tax increases. Also one of our reasons for moving was lower taxes and sitting down to figure that out it actually isn't as much a money saver as we thought. In Chicago we only had one car and never really had to drive. Public transportation everywhere. Don't have to pay for garbage pick up or recycling (its included). Don't spend 4 hours a day commuting and $189 on a train ticket. We had to get a second car here. We spend alot more on gas because we have to drive everywhere and the income tax is actually higher (Porter county charges a tax also). So our property tax is substantially lower and our sales tax is lower but does that make up for the commute and extra car and gas?! We were able to get a house with land for much cheaper then could be had in Chicago but we could probably get that in burbs right now for a really quick commute (metra has some great express trains).....If only there were white collar jobs.....
Oh geez. Give the Fox News comments a break already. It does nothing to help your debate. When some throws out that retort, it's a cheap shot and says to me that your argument is weak and you need to resort to name calling to prove your point.
No, it's not. It's true. People like you resort to platitudes, while failing to even glance at the quote I gave you from a sociologist who's spent his life studying poor people and the actions of poor people.
You can be illogical and ignore decades of worldwide history that shows why certain areas develop a criminal pathology, or you can look at it from an evolved position, like academics do.
I choose science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sAutomatic
It's not so much "excusing" their actions as it is finding the deeper causes of them. I don't think there are many poor people out there on the lower rung of society who would actually tell you these reasons why they are poor. I think that very few of them are terribly aware of them.
Pointing your finger at every poor person and calling them stupid and lazy isn't going to help them, now is it??? You need to step off your high horse and try to understand the root causes of these problems.
Exactly, it's as if they actually believe that there are parts of the world that produce more bad people than others, as opposed to being able to see that most human being are motivated by their environment, just like all other species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckity
Show me where I called the poor stupid & lazy.
I'm waiting ....
You can't because I didn't.
If anything, you and the posters who are arguing against me think far worse of those types of people than I do. You think that they can't help it, it's their environment. You pity them & you pidgeonhole them forever. I, on the other hand, think that they control the outcome of their own lives - and they can choose their own paths.
When grown adults continue to make bad lifestyle choices - why should it be excused away because of their socioeconomical level? You cannot for one second tell me that a grown adult doesn't understand the difference between good and bad and right and wrong.
It's not about "right and wrong". Our politicians do "wrong" everyday and send millions of people to their deaths. What is their punishment? What was AIG's punishment for running a ponzi scheme even larger than Madoffs? Oh yeah, 185 BILLION of OUR dollars.
Rich people do way worst stuff than poor people on a daily basis, but the society is set up for their screw ups to be excused and explained as merely the "invisible hand" of the market and coincidence.
Wall-Street is no more "moral" than the people in Gary or any other ghetto, it's just the CIRCUMSTANCES are different, therefore their lots in society are different.
Poor people live in the ghetto, are poisoned by factories that cause birth defects in their children, bad schools, bad food, and lack of job opportunites.
SOME people in those environments devolve as opposed to evolve.
Success isn't about being "right" or "wrong", it's about being in the right place at the right time and knowing the right people, in most cases. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to overcome those circumstances. I know a few people that have. I know even more that didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIS123
This is an excellent post! I know a lot of people in the NWI region who are unsuccessful as adults. Some were raised in above-average circumstances and others in below-average. That said, virtually all of them had opportunity to lead respectable lives as adults and most of them blew it. They don't deserve sympathy and have received more than enough Government assistance. As the above post says, they have control over their futures and it's their bad choices that placed them in difficult positions. At the same time, I know people from the region who are now doing well. It is clear that these people made good life decisions and the unsuccessful people made bad decisions. The distinction is clear.
It's not about "sympathy".
Only an idiot would debase decades of sociological evidence as "giving sympathy".
It's about knowing what conditions create monsters and striving to stop said conditions BEFORE people have to make that "right"/"wrong" decision. Kids in the "burbs" don't have to make the decision, whether they're going to join this gang, in order to survive, or plan ahead which way they're gonna walk home to prevent from getting killed or raped. Their minds are free to focus on school and being a kid. They don't have environmental waste being dumped in their communities, like we do here in Gary, which is why so many people are getting cancer. They have places to get summer jobs, so they can buy nice school clothes, so that the prospect of doing something "wrong" never enters their mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoHoVe
I never mentioned 7,8,9 kids...there are plenty of people out there who are unable to even care for ONE. Also I actually don't watch TV...I base my opinions on what I see going on in the world around me. And I could care less if someone lives in a trailer and has children. As long as the parents are pulling their own weight, who am I to judge? I don't have problems with people living their lives as they see fit UNTIL its my tax dollars supporting them.
There REALLY seems to be a false sense of entitlement among some of those who consider themselves "disadvantaged" it's as if the rest of the population OWES them something and that mentality is not specific to any particular race of people. I agree with the other poster who suggested that YOU are actually doing these people a disservice by labeling them as such. I have known people from all walks of life who have overcome tremendous odds and become successful and productive people and at the same time still have family members involved in crime and drugs. And those people agree...they wanted something better so they made a CHOICE and worked hard to get where they are. People do make it out of the ghettos but it takes the desire as well as a commitment to do what it takes to become successful.
You know remarkable people, as do I, but did you know that the odds of somebody being an alcoholic/drug addict is 50%, if one or both of their parents are drug addicts? You think that a full HALF of the people who have parents with addictions CHOOSE to become addicts? Do you know how many people that encompasses in the entire world?
You can find any study in the world and see what environments and social factors help decide what we become in life. You're on the internet. Please, feel free to read "Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt or "The Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, and read about how Bill Gates was lucky enough to come from an affluent family AND go to one of the few schools in America, where they taught comptuer programming. You think that had nothing to do with who Bill Gates is today?
That's like pretending that you're surprised that a horse and a donkey made a mule.
Do you honestly believe that environmental factors all equal. There is no rich and there is no poor. That the wealthy people(yes, even Paris Hilton) would inherently prove to be harder working, smarter, and more moral than everybody else, even if they were given the same environment as everybody else?
Please, a lot rich people kill themselves when they wake up with regular people money, imagine if they had to live in Gary for a week, month, year, and work the same menial jobs everybody else does or go to the same crappy schools everybody else does.
SOME people overcome the odds, not most. That's why they are the ODDS. You're not supposed to overcome them. When people do they should be congratulated. I've overcome the odds, but I'm not crazy enough to pretend that I didn't have to go through hell to do it and feel grateful for the few things that helped me get through them.
The Region seems to be debating its identity right now. On on hand, you have the crowd that longs for a re-birth in manufacturing and seeks to keep Chicago at arm's length. On the other hand, there are those who see a bright future for NWI as a collection of Chicago bedroom communities with an infrastructure that allows for easy commute into Chicago for higher-paying jobs. The debate over the extension of the South Shore is emblematic of this. Personally, I would prefer to see NWI choose the latter route, but I don't live in NWI, so I don't get a vote.
I don't think either route by itself is particularly realistic. To bring back the manufacturing jobs of old, priorities would have to be changed on a grander scale both politically and socially. But, to become a bedroom community for Chicago you still need to provide people with a reason to live there. Easy transportation to downtown has not made Joliet, Elgin, Waukegan, and Gary desirable places to live. Successful commuter suburbs usually have some combination of high quality school districts, cultural events, and jobs in the nearby area.
I think more important than battling for the region's identity is to just bring jobs in- period, regardless of type. I strongly hope for us as a country to reclaim our manufacturing base, but even if we get manufacturing jobs back, they probably won't be like the jobs that were prevalent in the region in the 1950s/1960s. It seems to me that one side of this debate is thinking in a 1955 fashion, while the other side is thinking in a 1995 fashion. The kind of jobs seen in Naperville, Schamburg, Glenview, etc. may be a good start. Best of luck to NWI.
I think transportation can play a big role in the future development of NWI. National warehouses and transportation related industries could take advantage of the geographic location. We need not only the 3rd airport and better interstate highways but easier access to the jobs of IL. Since it seems NWI is unable to diversify its economy, we should make it a better place to live where homes are affordable, taxes and crime low and it will be considered a desirable area to not only raise a family but also enjoy different types of activities. Some of those things hold true today but much more emphasis should be placed in those areas. A little advertising to change our image in the rest of the Chicagoland area wouldn't hurt.
Speaking only of Gary because I never lived in the other NWI cities---The future looks bleak to me because the people of Gary seem to be unwilling to elect leaders that actually have a vision, a plan or the best interests of the citizens in mind. You cannot argue with the history of corruption in Gary starting from the time Mayor Katz left office. This will probably go over like a lead balloon, but, maybe its time to try a white mayor again. Couldnt turn out any worse than your last umpteen mayors.
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NWI is dying a slow painful death
