Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Its sad, but you have to finish as planned, or its a waste of money. To stop at middle street you will not have the the riders going to work down town, and make the big selling point, of the project, make money, as planned.
Its sad, but you have to finish as planned, or its a waste of money. To stop at middle street you will not have the the riders going to work down town, and make the big selling point, of the project, make money, as planned.
How is it a waste of money? The shorter the route the less subsidies the rail will need. In fact, we'd be better off tearing down the whole thing than finishing it.
If the rail fares covered at least half of the cost to operate and maintain the monster, I'd probably agree that completing it as planned is the only sane way to go. But in reality riders will only be paying AT MOST 20% of the rail's O&M cost. 80%+ of that transportation expense is paid for by all the residents of Oahu for the entire life of the system. That's an absurd burden. Cutting the system short will eliminate a massive post-completion tax liability to the city and Oahu's residents.
Caldwell knows that he's going to have to raise taxes big time (car ownership fees/taxes, real property taxes, etc) to cover rail's operating cost; the state is not going to allow the rail's operating budget to come from its GET collections and they won't bail the city out. A significantly shortened route and the elimination of rail stations in the core will save the city immensely on operating costs and will lessen the tax subsidies necessary to sustain it.
How is it a waste of money? The shorter the route the less subsidies the rail will need. In fact, we'd be better off tearing down the whole thing than finishing it.
If the rail fares covered at least half of the cost to operate and maintain the monster, I'd probably agree that completing it as planned is the only sane way to go. But in reality riders will only be paying AT MOST 20% of the rail's O&M cost. 80%+ of that transportation expense is paid for by all the residents of Oahu for the entire life of the system. That's an absurd burden. Cutting the system short will eliminate a massive post-completion tax liability to the city and Oahu's residents.
Caldwell knows that he's going to have to raise taxes big time (car ownership fees/taxes, real property taxes, etc) to cover rail's operating cost; the state is not going to allow the rail's operating budget to come from its GET collections and they won't bail the city out. A significantly shortened route and the elimination of rail stations in the core will save the city immensely on operating costs and will lessen the tax subsidies necessary to sustain it.
Your post is absolute proof of the stopped clock/blind pig phenomenon. Once in a while they show the right time, find an acorn or say something that makes sense. One for the scrapbooks!!
In almost all cases, if ridership had to pay the actual costs in the fares they pay, they would be empty - a novelty - a very expensive boondoggle of a novelty. And unlike roads, which carry not only passengers, but the goods of commerce and every-day living, commuter trains are pax-only, and hence provide a much narrower benefit to society.
How is it a waste of money? The shorter the route the less subsidies the rail will need. In fact, we'd be better off tearing down the whole thing than finishing it.
If the rail fares covered at least half of the cost to operate and maintain the monster, I'd probably agree that completing it as planned is the only sane way to go. But in reality riders will only be paying AT MOST 20% of the rail's O&M cost. 80%+ of that transportation expense is paid for by all the residents of Oahu for the entire life of the system. That's an absurd burden. Cutting the system short will eliminate a massive post-completion tax liability to the city and Oahu's residents.
Caldwell knows that he's going to have to raise taxes big time (car ownership fees/taxes, real property taxes, etc) to cover rail's operating cost; the state is not going to allow the rail's operating budget to come from its GET collections and they won't bail the city out. A significantly shortened route and the elimination of rail stations in the core will save the city immensely on operating costs and will lessen the tax subsidies necessary to sustain it.
This issue is an example that some mainland thinking or way of doing things doesn't work well here in Hawaii. I think some people forget that as a modern state we are only 56 years old.
This issue is an example that some mainland thinking or way of doing things doesn't work well here in Hawaii. I think some people forget that as a modern state we are only 56 years old.
It seems to me that the ONLY thing that made/makes Hawaii a "modern state" (such that it is) is "Mainland Thinking". It wasn't "Local Thinking" that made progress happen!!
It seems to me that the ONLY thing that made/makes Hawaii a "modern state" (such that it is) is "Mainland Thinking". It wasn't "Local Thinking" that made progress happen!!
Mainland thinking is what got us this disastrous boondoggle in the first place. Virtually every Tom Dick and Harry that found their way over here from the contiguous US just raved about how wonderful rail was in their old stomping ground. They loved it so much they felt the need to shove it down our throats regardless of its cost and cultural/environmental impacts.
Kapolei and Ewa Beach are examples of mainland thinking too. We can thank it for the sprawl that has created this traffic mess to begin with.
Big city mainland thinking can benefit us to a point. Go too far and it will fail spectacularly. Much like socialism.
Ok i figured i might have to explain my statement. Heres another modern example of how trying to do things like they do on the mainland doesn't work here in Hawaii nei. In the recent years past the HDOE has closed several schools to save money despite heavy protest from communities or for any value other then money. We would think this is a good thing right? Wait
Well also in the last few years the HDOE has changed the start times of the school year from the classic september to june schedule that Hawaii had in past to a late july or early august start time that alot of school districts on the mainland have now. Again the motive is more class time. Heres how it doesn't work in Hawaii and is another major costly boondoggle in the making. July, August and September are our hottest months esp in the last few years with global warming. 90% of Hawaii classrooms are not equipped with AC because it wasn't needed. Heat concerns are becoming reality. Now all classes need heat abatement. Imagine the costs now?
Last edited by HawaiiAtHeart; 06-30-2016 at 08:14 PM..
Mainland thinking is what got us this disastrous boondoggle in the first place. Virtually every Tom Dick and Harry that found their way over here from the contiguous US just raved about how wonderful rail was in their old stomping ground. They loved it so much they felt the need to shove it down our throats regardless of its cost and cultural/environmental impacts.
Kapolei and Ewa Beach are examples of mainland thinking too. We can thank it for the sprawl that has created this traffic mess to begin with.
Big city mainland thinking can benefit us to a point. Go too far and it will fail spectacularly. Much like socialism.
I seriously doubt if very many of the people who moved there had light-rail at "home". It is usually liberal Democrats that favor such Boondoggles, and usually in places they control with their usual Iron Fist approach - SFO, L.A., etc., and now they want to force high-speed rail-to-nowhere down everyone in California.
Are you saying that the move for this came from the grass-roots up, or, as I suspect, from the ruling elite down?
I was thinking more along the lines of electricity, sewer, drinking water, paved streets, airports etc., not specifically this project alone when I referred to Mainland Thinking (as in modernization using the inventions of the mainland).
I seriously doubt if very many of the people who moved there had light-rail at "home". It is usually liberal Democrats that favor such Boondoggles, and usually in places they control with their usual Iron Fist approach - SFO, L.A., etc., and now they want to force high-speed rail-to-nowhere down everyone in California.
Are you saying that the move for this came from the grass-roots up, or, as I suspect, from the ruling elite down?
I was thinking more along the lines of electricity, sewer, drinking water, paved streets, airports etc., not specifically this project alone when I referred to Mainland Thinking (as in modernization using the inventions of the mainland).
The most vocal proponents of rail were definitely malihini from liberal mainland cities with rail infrastructure (yes, even more liberal than Honolulu)... particularly those geniuses that bought homes in west Oahu. They didn't care what the negative impacts of rail were... they just wanted SOMEONE ELSE to fix the traffic mess they bought into hoping others would ditch their cars for the extreme hassle of public transit.
I've been to dozens of rail propaganda events sponsored by the city over the last decade and they were heavily HEAVILY attended by progressive malihini. Very few locals here supported it, particularly in the late 2000's. Even those that live in gridlocked west Oahu.
I hope you don't mind me chiming in? I know you responded to pj737. I just thought i would explain that i also love electricity, running water, paved streets ect. I also love modernization. That is not what i meant by mainland thinking. Like what pj737 said "mainland thinking can benefit us to a point. Go too far and it will fail spectacularly" There is many ways this thinking can fail in Hawaii. I will not go into that because this is not the thread for it. The term progress as used on the mainland and its values sometimes has to be examined if its viable for our island home.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
