Why I"m Leaving Ohio (Cleveland: vacation, estate, residential)

[ohio_peasant]

Having thought about this issue for a while, my conclusion is that I principally value three things from a locale. In no particular order…

1. I’m a first generation immigrant (foreign-born), and I crave the company of other people who speak my native language. This is possible – but with some difficulty – in Cleveland. It’s impossible in my part of Ohio (east of Dayton). It’s readily possible in Boston or LA. It's totally trivial in NYC.

2. My house should be a good investment. Please, let’s not delve into investment strategy here… real estate vs. stocks etc. I love stocks too, but call it an emotional hangup. I want to be in a market where housing-costs grow faster than inflation, and where even a modest house in a crummy neighborhood is a pricey asset.

3. Regardless of whether I ever go to a museum, concert-hall or sports-stadium, it’s important for me to partake of a communal feeling, that our city has truly global significance, that it’s in the first tier of cities whose name is printed in large block letters on even a 12” tabletop globe. Why? Is this silly? Maybe. But it’s a preference of mine. I’d rather be in a gangland, drug-infested slum of a major city, than in pristine and genteel enclave of a tertiary one.

For a “generic” American who’s trying to raise kids, pay off debt, and enjoy a pleasant life, the above considerations range from the casually irrelevant to the outright dumb. But we all have our particulars and proclivities.

[goofy328]

Dayton is probably the worst city you could be in. Lived there ten years. It's poor. It's strictly Black and White with no racial diversity whatsoever. Crime is through the roof. No jobs. And it's segregated, heavily. Get out of that city while you still can.

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by goofy328

As great as you think that I think it is or as great as someone contemplating moving to Ohio might think it is. If you give someone a choice between Boston or one of Ohio's cities?

Oh I wish I could move to Cleveland. Right now, I can't afford it though.

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

Oh I wish I could move to Cleveland. Right now, I can't afford it though.

You can't afford Cleveland?

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by goofy328

You can't afford Cleveland?

You heard it right. Cleveland has all the museums, entertainment centers, parks, and activities one could ever want - I visited in 2013 and had a wonderful time - but all that is for naught because of the number one thing that attracts people to a new city - JOBS. The job market in Cleveland is not strong, the political attitude is too complacent and myopic, and even if one finds a job, what are the chances of moving up the mobility ladder? What are the chances of finding a similar job if you lose the first one? Cleveland has many opportunities to lure more companies to set up shop but the leadership is not taking advantage of them because they want to protect their own interests.

A lot of people cannot afford Cleveland and are either leaving or simply not considering moving there. Unfortunately a large portion of this population is young people who would have contributed to the local economy if given the chance to. Don't think for once that all of those folks leaving NE Ohio hate the place like this thread's O.P. They are leaving because they HAVE to, in order to find jobs and better opportunities. That doesn't mean they hate C-Town and if opportunity arises, would move back and encourage others to join them. At the moment, there isn't enough job safety or enough growth opportunities to justify a permanent move to NE Ohio and it's really too bad.

Now do you understand my meaning of affordability?

[walker1962]

Originally Posted by TheProf

You seem to be saying to things: 1. the economic health of the Boston region viz Ohio, esp Cleveland, and 2. the quality of life of each.

There's little argument regarding 1. Boston's population has risen sharply in recent decades, including the metro area, while Cleveland and Cuyahoga County remain in free fall; although, happily, Cleveland's losses have slowed significantly in the latest census update.

But in terms of quality of life, I would not say Boston is significantly superior to Cleveland/NEO. Sure employment is stronger, which is very important, and retail, esp downtown, is stronger in Beantown. Downtown Boston, overall, is stronger and more robust than Cleveland and, as an old Colonial city, has the advantage of always having a high residential base; whereas Cleveland is just beginning to grow its downtown residential prowess, after over a century of industrialization, pushing residents out toward the fringes and into the suburbs while turning downtown into strictly a commercial center -- a pattern that's true in most major cities, esp in the industrial Midwest.

But Cleveland nearly equals Boston in terms of things to do, especially culturally; surpasses it in terms of high-quality natural areas in the city/close by and flat out is superior to Boston in terms of non-downtown residential areas in the City and suburbs, including so-called inner ring burbs, in terms of diversity and quality of housing and residential experiences -- which becomes even more stark when you factor in the relative costs of RE and apt living as compared between the 2 metro cities.

... and certainly Boston is generally just as cold and just as snowy as NEO, so it gets no points weather-wise.

BIG HOMER alert because NO ONE I know EVER says "let's go to Cleveland" for vacation! Create a new thread with a pole asking where which city would one chose for vacation or even thinks about more in terms of importance.

[InchingWest]

Originally Posted by jlawrence01

I think that we saved $8-12k per year by moving from NE Ohio to Northern Illinois which more than offsets the increased sales tax on the occasional hamburger.

Originally Posted by ram2

Yeah, right.

That comment was absolutely kooky. Property taxes on even modest homes in Illinois are absolutely insane.


Cook County, Illinois

Here's a house being sold for 114k: property taxes 8.7k
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1.../3294925_zpid/

Another with a sale price of 400k: prop taxes 14k.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8.../3273825_zpid/

Another asking price of 1.25m: property taxes of a whopping 28k
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1.../3243612_zpid/


Lorain, Ohio
115k house, prop taxes of 1.3k.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...34540299_zpid/
400k house, prop taxes 6.2k

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...34563324_zpid/
1.3m asking price: prop taxes 16k.


I think that she meant that she paid $8-10k more in Illinois.


Now, I don't think 16k/year, or even 30k/year property taxes is unreasonable on a property worth a million and a half. The problem is when people are taxed on very modest homes in amounts approaching 10k per year. How many working and middle class people can afford a home at all when the bare minimum in northern Illinois puts property taxes in the 10k range?

[Surgzown]

Originally Posted by InchingWest

That comment was absolutely kooky. Property taxes on even modest homes in Illinois are absolutely insane.


Cook County, Illinois

Here's a house being sold for 114k: property taxes 8.7k
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1.../3294925_zpid/

Another with a sale price of 400k: prop taxes 14k.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8.../3273825_zpid/

Another asking price of 1.25m: property taxes of a whopping 28k
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1.../3243612_zpid/


Lorain, Ohio
115k house, prop taxes of 1.3k.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...34540299_zpid/
400k house, prop taxes 6.2k

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...34563324_zpid/
1.3m asking price: prop taxes 16k.


I think that she meant that she paid $8-10k more in Illinois.


Now, I don't think 16k/year, or even 30k/year property taxes is unreasonable on a property worth a million and a half. The problem is when people are taxed on very modest homes in amounts approaching 10k per year. How many working and middle class people can afford a home at all when the bare minimum in northern Illinois puts property taxes in the 10k range?

Wait, are you serious? You ever been to New Jersey? They have higher property taxes than Illinois. Some people act like Illinois taxes are the worst in the nation. Have to laugh every time.

[jlawrence01]

Originally Posted by InchingWest

That comment was absolutely kooky. Property taxes on even modest homes in Illinois are absolutely insane.

?

As I noted in the post, the property taxes in the suburb of Cleveland that I sold was nearly the same as the house I bought in the Chicago suburbs.

The huge savings at that time was the differences in STATE AND LOCAL INCOME TAXES. At the time I moved my business, the top rate in Illinois was 3% and the top rate in Ohio was 7.5%. Illinois LOCAL income taxes do not exist. In Ohio, my earnings were taxed at 2.5% in the city I worked in and 1.75% in the city that I lived in.

I remain convinced that Ohio is generally a higher tax state than Illinois. However, if I had the misfortune of living in either state, I would make sure that I resided in unincorporated areas where the tax rates are lower and where there are no local income taxes.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

You heard it right. Cleveland has all the museums, entertainment centers, parks, and activities one could ever want - I visited in 2013 and had a wonderful time - but all that is for naught because of the number one thing that attracts people to a new city - JOBS. The job market in Cleveland is not strong, the political attitude is too complacent and myopic, and even if one finds a job, what are the chances of moving up the mobility ladder? What are the chances of finding a similar job if you lose the first one? Cleveland has many opportunities to lure more companies to set up shop but the leadership is not taking advantage of them because they want to protect their own interests.

A lot of people cannot afford Cleveland and are either leaving or simply not considering moving there. Unfortunately a large portion of this population is young people who would have contributed to the local economy if given the chance to. Don't think for once that all of those folks leaving NE Ohio hate the place like this thread's O.P. They are leaving because they HAVE to, in order to find jobs and better opportunities. That doesn't mean they hate C-Town and if opportunity arises, would move back and encourage others to join them. At the moment, there isn't enough job safety or enough growth opportunities to justify a permanent move to NE Ohio and it's really too bad.

Now do you understand my meaning of affordability?

Yes for sure. You need to have a job to afford anything. But at the same time, I am not sure it's that bad. Most of my friends in Cleveland dont have college degrees and yet have a standard of living comparable to mine, if not higher in some ways.

What industry are you in? I've had a couple interviews for Cleveland companies so far. Haven't gotten anything yet but it's been surprisingly more encouraging than I thought it would be. The last time I tried to get a job there, absolutely nobody was biting.