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So I guess you think people should stay there and maybe the area won't change? Talk gullible people into buying there? If you stay there you will be stuck in an area that changed. I've watched the neighborhoods in Warren change over the last 50+ years. Every group that thought they were going to make things better were wrong. In all of these years they were never able to improve 1 neighborhood. When the change starts you get out or you lose.
We are moving TO Central Parkway Ave., SE, one block off of E. Market Street. I thought it's been established that this area is good. We have met the neighbors and they are definitely middle class and home owners, employed, and decorate their homes nicely and tastefully. How can you predict in a couple of years you won't want to live there?
I wouldn't have wanted to live there 40 years ago.
You do know what middle class is? That hasn't been a middle class neighborhood since I was a kid, and I am almost 60. That is a lower WORKING class neighborhood. You could have bought 2 or 3 blocks north and you would have been in an ok area.
Who established that it was a good area? The neighbors? I think it is time you start reading the police blotter in the Tribune print edition.
I don't know where you come from or what you are used to. Maybe it is better than what you are used to. But please don't try to make it something that it is not. Its not fair to the people that come to this site and want to find a nice home in a good safe area.
I wouldn't have wanted to live there 40 years ago.
You do know what middle class is? That hasn't been a middle class neighborhood since I was a kid, and I am almost 60. That is a lower WORKING class neighborhood. You could have bought 2 or 3 blocks north and you would have been in an ok area.
Who established that it was a good area? The neighbors? I think it is time you start reading the police blotter in the Tribune print edition.
I don't know where you come from or what you are used to. Maybe it is better than what you are used to. But please don't try to make it something that it is not. Its not fair to the people that come to this site and want to find a nice home in a good safe area.
First of all, we were both sociology majors, and graduates of highly competitive universities. Secondly we are from Oyster Bay and Stony Brook. Look them up on city data. What is your definition of "middle class"? We never thought it was an upper middle class neighborhood which is what we are used to. It feels like a middle class working neighborhood. We only have one child at home and are not sending her to the public school, but are sending her to John F. Kennedy H.S.
There really are still some middle class families on the SE side of Warren. My girlfriend and her husband (a nurse) live on Oak Knoll 2 blocks in from Market. My dad's cousin and her husband live on Meadowbrook. My cousin who is a school teacher also lives on Meadowbrook. I used to work at Packard and a ton of my coworkers lived in the city. My dad grew up on Eastland and I know that area very well having grown up walking up and down those sidewalks with my grandpa. I know the SE side isn't what it used to be, and typically I would say stay north of E. Market, but those neighborhoods a few blocks down from E. Market are still ok.
I live in Cortland and we have had home and car breakins at times. Howland has lots of property crime too...........I own a scanner and often listen to the Howland/Cortland Police feed (they use the same dispatch). Most of the calls are Howland, which makes sense because the population and area of that township is about 3 times the size of Cortland City.
There are some really bad parts of Howland that Howland people seem to forget about. These neighborhoods, in my opinion, are worse than the area Sheena is talking about. I'm talking mostly about Bolindale and the area surrounding JFK. There are also some pretty crappy neighborhoods off Elm Rd and in the Morgandale area. I find it surprising that many people don't realize that most of Elm Rd. is actually in Howland, stretching from near the rt 5 bypass south to the Elm Rd. Plaza.
It seems that the majority of property crime is committed by people who are caught up in the drug culture here and it doesn't matter if you live in a $550k house in Howland or a $20k house in Warren, drugs affect everyone's life in this area. If you don't have a friend or family member who's had issues with drugs (due in many cases to Dr.'s who prescribe Oxycontin to people w/back injuries) consider yourself lucky. Addicts will continue to steal from their family and friends, they'll continue to rob stores and pharmacies, they'll break into the car parked in your suburban driveway, they'll break into your house while you're at work. Many of these people are drug addicted criminals that know you or your neighbors, they've been in your house and they know your neighborhood as well as you do.
Sure my experience is anecdotal. But I'm glad I ignored the naysayers, and took the chance. You stand a greater chance of being killed in an automobile accident than I do of being murdered. Does that stop you from driving? Aren't you also playing a game of Russian Roulette?
In your opinion. I think we get that.
I never said you were wrong, just incomplete.
Just FYI, city employees aren't forced to live in the city anymore.
Well, until I read the rest of your last post, I thought you were just a suburban snob making a potentially racist statement. But it sounds like you were one of the people not allowed to drive through Poland.
No, you just suggested that no one should move there, and that only those who have no other choice should live there.
Sorry you had a rough life growing up here. I'm not sure why that makes your opinion of the city any more valid than mine.
Isn't this true of ANY place?
What's "fluffy" about my outlook on the city? How am I marginalizing current native residents? How can the city ever hope to rebound, if real natives--like yourself--tell outsiders to stay away?
No, I'm not excited about the shale boom, but for different reasons than you, apparently.
So your negative experiences within the city made you dislike it. My positive experiences within the city made me like it.
Yes, and these are reasons why someone might want to live here.
As far as coming out of the park at the wrong place, you're using hyperbole again. There aren't gangs of "savages" waiting at park entrances to pounce on unsuspecting outsiders who took a wrong turn.
My love is architecture. So, doing my part to improve the city involves saving buildings, restoring houses, helping others work on their houses, hiring locals for jobs I don't want to/can't do, etc. There are others who have different interests/loves, and they do their things to improve the city in their own way. One thing I'm sure will NOT help the city, is telling people that there is no reason for anyone to live there.
This is just so sad. My only hope is prospective movers to the area have ignored you. I hope it's ignorance guiding you (and I suspect it is as you have no idea of the realities being played out in the ghetto) because otherwise this stance is just sad and cruel. Your attitude is actually making things worse. It's just...well...sad.
Last edited by No_Recess; 12-15-2012 at 10:18 PM..
So I guess you think people should stay there and maybe the area won't change? Talk gullible people into buying there? If you stay there you will be stuck in an area that changed. I've watched the neighborhoods in Warren change over the last 50+ years. Every group that thought they were going to make things better were wrong. In all of these years they were never able to improve 1 neighborhood. When the change starts you get out or you lose.
It's because change can only happen through addressing the taboo subjects of class and race on a political and socio-economic level. It's like the Idora Park area in Ytown. A local group of folks plant gardens, get new street signs, and hold vigils for "victims" and think that is helping. Those are fine measures but should only be addressed after we get thru the real issues. It's the lipstick on a pig approach and yes the gullibles buy it.
There really are still some middle class families on the SE side of Warren. My girlfriend and her husband (a nurse) live on Oak Knoll 2 blocks in from Market. My dad's cousin and her husband live on Meadowbrook. My cousin who is a school teacher also lives on Meadowbrook. I used to work at Packard and a ton of my coworkers lived in the city. My dad grew up on Eastland and I know that area very well having grown up walking up and down those sidewalks with my grandpa. I know the SE side isn't what it used to be, and typically I would say stay north of E. Market, but those neighborhoods a few blocks down from E. Market are still ok.
I live in Cortland and we have had home and car breakins at times. Howland has lots of property crime too...........I own a scanner and often listen to the Howland/Cortland Police feed (they use the same dispatch). Most of the calls are Howland, which makes sense because the population and area of that township is about 3 times the size of Cortland City.
There are some really bad parts of Howland that Howland people seem to forget about. These neighborhoods, in my opinion, are worse than the area Sheena is talking about. I'm talking mostly about Bolindale and the area surrounding JFK. There are also some pretty crappy neighborhoods off Elm Rd and in the Morgandale area. I find it surprising that many people don't realize that most of Elm Rd. is actually in Howland, stretching from near the rt 5 bypass south to the Elm Rd. Plaza.
It seems that the majority of property crime is committed by people who are caught up in the drug culture here and it doesn't matter if you live in a $550k house in Howland or a $20k house in Warren, drugs affect everyone's life in this area. If you don't have a friend or family member who's had issues with drugs (due in many cases to Dr.'s who prescribe Oxycontin to people w/back injuries) consider yourself lucky. Addicts will continue to steal from their family and friends, they'll continue to rob stores and pharmacies, they'll break into the car parked in your suburban driveway, they'll break into your house while you're at work. Many of these people are drug addicted criminals that know you or your neighbors, they've been in your house and they know your neighborhood as well as you do.
These are the types of people who we have met when moving things in and improving the house. Working middle class. People with some college, associates degrees, or BAs. Some law endorsement professionals and some skilled workers.
No snobs. That area is pretty pristine and middle class in culture and values. From the pride in ownership displayed by the residents, to the tasteful Christmas decorations.
Mt husband was there yesterday, checking on the house and picking my son up from YSU. My friend, an old college room mate, sent me a house warming gift. This was two weeks ago. It bore the logo of a very nice store. She thought we were already in the house and was worried about the package.
She had no reason to fear. Right there, on the screened porch was the present, along with other mail.
We are close to E.Market, a few country clubs and the Lutheran church we will be attending. The Pastor lives on my block. Lutheran pastors can live where they want even if there is a parsonage.
I take that as a good sign as well.
This is just so sad. My only hope is prospective movers to the area have ignored you.
I always try to provide what I see as a balanced picture, so that anyone interested can make up their own mind. I hope and encourage anyone who disagrees with me to say so, because I'll be the first one to say that I'm not an expert on all things Youngstown. But, it seems to me that telling someone to avoid the city altogether, is making their mind up for them.
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I hope it's ignorance guiding you (and I suspect it is as you have no idea of the realities being played out in the ghetto) because otherwise this stance is just sad and cruel. Your attitude is actually making things worse. It's just...well...sad.
I'm not recommending that anyone lives in the ghetto. What is "cruel" about revitalization? How does revitalization make things worse?
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Originally Posted by No_Recess
It's because change can only happen through addressing the taboo subjects of class and race on a political and socio-economic level. It's like the Idora Park area in Ytown. A local group of folks plant gardens, get new street signs, and hold vigils for "victims" and think that is helping. Those are fine measures but should only be addressed after we get thru the real issues. It's the lipstick on a pig approach and yes the gullibles buy it.
This seems pretty typical for the naysayers in the area. Call any revitalization efforts "lipstick on a pig" but offer no real solutions to the huge problems they say need fixed first.
Until you can answer some of my questions, I'm done with this conversation.
So I guess you think people should stay there and maybe the area won't change?
Basically, yes. If people stay, there is no room for the people No_Recess calls "savages" to move in.
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Talk gullible people into buying there?
People reinvesting in depressed areas is how gentrification/revitalization begins.
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If you stay there you will be stuck in an area that changed. I've watched the neighborhoods in Warren change over the last 50+ years. Every group that thought they were going to make things better were wrong. In all of these years they were never able to improve 1 neighborhood.
Not sure why gentrification/revitalization never took root in Warren, when it's quite common in most other cities. Maybe it's the overwhelming negativity toward the cities around here; the attitude that anyone who tries has lost before they even start? In any event, it's a different issue than working to maintain an existing, stable neighborhood.
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When the change starts you get out or you lose.
And I still call that a self-fulfilling prophecy. Until people understand that running from problems will only make them worse, neighborhoods will continue to deteriorate, and it won't stop at municipal borders.
It's because change can only happen through addressing the taboo subjects of class and race on a political and socio-economic level. It's like the Idora Park area in Ytown. A local group of folks plant gardens, get new street signs, and hold vigils for "victims" and think that is helping. Those are fine measures but should only be addressed after we get thru the real issues. It's the lipstick on a pig approach and yes the gullibles buy it.
Hooray for calling them "savages." I could not agree more with that assessment. We're talking about pushy and destructive people who do not wish to conform to the norms, who are poorly educated, who do not respect other people. Or respect other people's boundaries and property boundaries. Most of them have criminal records dating back to their juvenile days, and have just continued on with their pushy and violent way of life once they became adults. They were given multiple opportunities and handouts and hands up, but they prefer to not change themselves one iota. Destroy where they live, then move on, like the Plagues of Egypt, except there is absolutely not one bit of good done.
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the majority of property crime is committed by people who are caught up in the drug culture here and it doesn't matter if you live in a $550k house in Howland or a $20k house in Warren, drugs affect everyone's life in this area.
^ YES, that is VERY true, and I, for one am gawddammed sick and tired of the weak and stupid people and criminals and their problems! THAT, right there, is exactly one of the strong objections that I have to this entire region. It's just another symptom of the perpetual decay and rot. That the people who have lived here all their lives just accept it like it always is and has been a part of life, I find unacceptable and disturbing. Remember, I lived 25 years in a prosperous and well-educated city, and I did not have poverty and drugs and drinking and despair and decay and rot at my doorstep from age 20 to when I moved back here. This region makes me gag. Too many people are slobs and bumpkins and criminals with no real employable skills. They are poorly educated. Their kids are messes of drugs, drinking, unwed pregnancies, domestic abuse, and other lower socioeconomic stupid people's crap.
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Not sure why gentrification/revitalization never took root in Warren, when it's quite common in most other cities.
I am sure it's because the career opportunities are just not here. Mill laborers start at $10/hour now and average $14-$15. Maintenance is $18-$19 0r $20/hr. College grads and others (many) left for larger cities that offered them a decent standard of living and a less-ghetto society. My family isn't originally from Shenango Valley. My parents only moved there because a) They BOTH got decent careers out of it (NO high school diploma homemaker mammas in MY family!) and b) Youngstown and Sharon and Warren were a mecca for jobs in manufacturing back them. You could quit a job one morning, drive down the road to the next plant, and get a new job that afternoon. Schools and churches were bursting at the seams and hiring teachers right and left. Black people got jobs and behaved like everyone else. All the men were WWII and Korean War vets with guns, that tended to keep the vandals and criminals in check, too. Kind of like a very large unpaid police force. ;-)
And what's here, now, to attract people who want prosperity, nice surroundings, nice urban professional neighbors, and no crime?
Last edited by SorryIMovedBack; 12-16-2012 at 09:42 AM..
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