Canton vs Parma vs Youngstown (Cleveland, Lorain: city hall, insurance, houses)

[foreverdublin21]

All three of these cities have experienced growth and surpassed 100Ks residents, but have since declined. Now, as of late which of these three cities do you think has the most likely chance of surpassing 100ks again (or the soonest).

Personally my vote would go to Youngstown, cause i'm intrigued by the new direction they've decided to take and it's in such a cool part of the state, very scenic as well. However, Parma is close to Cleveland and is a relatively safe community and has some good amenities. Not sure about Canton though. But what do you think?

[thinkalot]

None will ever see 100,000 again.

Youngstown's direction is just this decades direction. Last decade they had a different one and next decade will be a different one again. Their population was still dropping last time I checked.

I had family and family of family in Parma. They all moved to different Cleveland suburbs. There is nothing to attract people.

Why would anyone move to Canton? It is a decent day trip but that's about it.

You will have to look away from NE Ohio to find Ohio cities that will grow to 100,000+.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by thinkalot

None will ever see 100,000 again.

Youngstown's direction is just this decades direction. Last decade they had a different one and next decade will be a different one again. Their population was still dropping last time I checked.

I had family and family of family in Parma. They all moved to different Cleveland suburbs. There is nothing to attract people.

Why would anyone move to Canton? It is a decent day trip but that's about it.

You will have to look away from NE Ohio to find Ohio cities that will grow to 100,000+.

Parma, Canton, Youngstown, and Lorain are the 4 biggest cities in Ohio udner 100,000. I think NEO would be a good place to look, especially with the dominant city, Clevland, starting to turn around. I think this favors Parma, already at 80,000. I agree that it isn't likely to happen, and Parma is a horribly boring and unattractive suburb, but if Cleveland can figure itself out, it's obvious why people would begin to look at Parma again.

[JR_C]

I had to choose Canton. Though it would be easiest for Youngstown. (Youngstown could easily pass 100k again, if it had the political will to annex its neighboring unincorporated suburbs, though I doubt that's what the OP meant.)

Canton and Youngstown have similar character and have their own interesting features/amenities. (I don't know anything about Parma) But currently in Youngstown, demolition is the only form of neighborhood investment that anyone--in city hall, at least--seems interested in. (we'll see if the new mayor can change this)

[YtownGuy]

I'm also in Youngstown, and I would agree with JR_C. There are a lot of abandoned buildings in Youngstown that should be demolished. Perhaps that would clear the way for new development.

So many people who live near Youngstown are too scared to venture across the city limits, and the schools don't have a good reputation. Those are probably the two biggest things that are holding the city back.

[thinkalot]

Originally Posted by YtownGuy

I'm also in Youngstown, and I would agree with JR_C. There are a lot of abandoned buildings in Youngstown that should be demolished. Perhaps that would clear the way for new development.

So many people who live near Youngstown are too scared to venture across the city limits, and the schools don't have a good reputation. Those are probably the two biggest things that are holding the city back.

You are not agreeing with JR_C. He is a rehab not demo person.

Since the police chief stated that half of the drivers in Y-Town do not have insurance, do you blame people that do not want to go into the city? That town has no redeeming features other than The Butler, Mill Creek Park, Stambaugh, and some would say YSU. A few niche things that a small group would like, but they aren't what would drive population growth. Does Y-Town even use New Housing Starts as an indicator?

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by thinkalot

You are not agreeing with JR_C. He is a rehab not demo person.

Not exactly. You're right that I am in favor of rehabilitation, but there is plenty that's worthy of demolition, too. The city just needs to be smarter about it.

For example, the brick house at the link below has been demolished, and has been replaced by a weedy lot.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=41.10145...,96.83,,0,0.34
Which do you think would have helped stabilize this--mostly intact--street better: the weedy lot, or a stabilized house? (other cities have had success with giving a house away to an eligible owner who will rehab it, and stay there for a pre-determined number of years) Even if the lot were given to neighbors and maintained, you still have an ugly gap in the streetscape. For the record, I lived in this neighborhood up until this October, so I know it's a decent neighborhood.

But here is a good candidate for demolition, that would make room for new development:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=41.11077...,342.48,,0,3.6

Since the police chief stated that half of the drivers in Y-Town do not have insurance, do you blame people that do not want to go into the city?

Not that those who are afraid of crossing the city border are logical to start with, this doesn't hold up to logic. Do you really think these uninsured drivers don't leave the city limits? I wonder how many uninsured drivers there are elsewhere? I seriously doubt that Youngstown has a monopoly on uninsured drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if Columbiana County had a higher percentage of uninsured drivers than Mahoning County.

That town has no redeeming features other than The Butler, Mill Creek Park, Stambaugh, and some would say YSU. A few niche things that a small group would like, but they aren't what would drive population growth. Does Y-Town even use New Housing Starts as an indicator?

Other cities should be so lucky.

The only thing that really drives population growth, is jobs. I mean, look at the population growth in the sunbelt.

If you believe the shale proponents, we'll be getting plenty of jobs. Even if the thousands of jobs promised from the shale boom turn out to be imaginary, there are smaller drivers of job growth that are real. (i.e. YBI, NAMII) But, if we want them to choose the city over the suburbs, we have to provide potential residents stable neighborhoods that aren't blighted with gaps/weedy lots.

[313 TUxedo]

I agree with thinkalot that the odds are against any of these three seeing 100,000 residents again.

Youngstown, and, to a lesser degree, Canton, are "Detroit-like" cities, with many of the same problems as Detroit, only not as severe. Especially in Youngstown, no one is likely to move into such a town unless there is to be a HUGE shift in political power, wages, worker rights, and foreign trade policy. By huge, I mean the changes that can't happen unless/until the flag over this part of the continent is something other than red, white and blue.

Parma is liveable. It is a suburb of Cleveland instead of an old core city like the other two. It is close to freeways in every direction and to the airport. I would consider Parma if I were to find a new job in the region. Parma has another reason it is unlikely to top 100k again - that peak population was largely the children of large family households. The population of Parma has fallen as the kids grow up and leave to start families (and thus households) of their own. Parma has few vacant lots and abandoned houses, but families now and in the future will be smaller, keeping the population below 100k.

[YtownGuy]

When I say that some people are afraid of venturing into the city of Youngstown, I am not referring to any risk from uninsured drivers. I'm talking about crime. I agree that these fears are not always logical, but people who are afraid to even visit the city for shopping and culture are highly unlikely to move into Youngstown.

[I_Like_Spam]

Youngstown has the most vacant housing and the space to handle thousands of new residents.

But people won't come unless there is the industry there to attract them- the city could experience a boom depending on how the natural gas and oil industries develop, that has a real chance of stimulating growth in eastern Ohio.