Which of the three C's do you think will be the most dominant power in all of Ohio by 2050? (Columbus: unemployment, neighborhood)

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You think that's the same thing? Okay...

If the Browns weren't profitable, they would have moved away again.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

CSAs and media markets are more about regional connections and less about core cities or even metros. Any larger and you might as well be talking about the entire state. I don't find CSAs to be particularly useful in determining anything.

Cleveland has 3 major sports teams for a reason, and it's not because of the media market size.

Cleveland Browns: 1945
Cleveland National Population Rank 1940: #6 And 1950: #7

Cleveland Indians: 1900
Cleveland National Population Rank 1900: #7

Cleveland Cavaliers: 1970
Cleveland National Population Rank 1970: #10

Cleveland gained all of its major teams during a time when it was a top 10 largest city in the US, and at times when team expansions were still taking place. It would be extremely unlikely to have gained any of them in recent decades.

THe Indians existed because Charles Somers was a loaded industrialist who lived in Cleveland, had a lot of money to spend, started the American League, and also owned the Red Sox. He could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

If the Browns weren't profitable, they would have moved away again.

I don't disagree with that, but we're not really talking about the profitability of professional sports in Cleveland, only how they came to be there. I don't think the reinstatement of a legacy team almost immediately after losing it because of the *owner* is the same as granting a brand new franchise to a city that previously never had one. Had Cleveland never had the Browns, what do you think the chances would be that it would get a new NFL team today? And this is not a knock on Cleveland, it's just a reality of how pro sports work.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

THe Indians existed because Charles Somers was a loaded industrialist who lived in Cleveland, had a lot of money to spend, started the American League, and also owned the Red Sox. He could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

That's kind of the point. The pro sports market *today* is fairly well saturated. Any expansion teams, if expansion even happens, are only going to go to the largest cities or through team moves. Cleveland gained its teams largely when 1. The number of teams was much smaller, 2. Leagues were still expanding and/or forming, 3. Cleveland was one of the largest cities in the nation and had the kind of influence (and residents) to pull them in.
If you think about it, Columbus got its 2 teams in the same ways. The Crew was built as a franchise by a single rich owner who also financed the stadium, all at a time when the league was in its very early years. The Blue Jackets also came about during a period of expansion for a sport that had far less market saturation than the big 3. Columbus is unlikely to gain NFL, NBA or MLB teams over the next few decades at least.
Some were saying that Cleveland's 3 pro teams is a product of the current media market, but that's just not true. The 3 teams it gained many decades ago likely had an influence on the current media market size rather than the other way around.

[usaf_1832]

Population Ain

Interesting article related to discussion in this thread.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You think that's the same thing? Okay...

Very much the same. Why would the NFL push a team back into the area as quickly as they did if there wasn't the commercial, economic and fan-base support for it? They could have put a team anywhere they wanted to. They put it back in Cleveland because the area has always, and I mean always, staunchly supported it.

[Cleveland_Collector]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

That's kind of the point. The pro sports market *today* is fairly well saturated. Any expansion teams, if expansion even happens, are only going to go to the largest cities or through team moves. Cleveland gained its teams largely when 1. The number of teams was much smaller, 2. Leagues were still expanding and/or forming, 3. Cleveland was one of the largest cities in the nation and had the kind of influence (and residents) to pull them in.
If you think about it, Columbus got its 2 teams in the same ways. The Crew was built as a franchise by a single rich owner who also financed the stadium, all at a time when the league was in its very early years. The Blue Jackets also came about during a period of expansion for a sport that had far less market saturation than the big 3. Columbus is unlikely to gain NFL, NBA or MLB teams over the next few decades at least.
Some were saying that Cleveland's 3 pro teams is a product of the current media market, but that's just not true. The 3 teams it gained many decades ago likely had an influence on the current media market size rather than the other way around.

It's a synergetic relationship, no doubt. But, it still requires "x" amount of population to support it. A media market is quite dependent on the overall population it encapsulates. Many teams have moved away from their respective, smaller markets. Cleveland's have not. And, when one did, it was the doings of a crappy owner rather than a lack of support. This is reason #1 why the NFL didn't hesitate to not only return a franchise to the area immediately but to also maintain the history and colors of the original franchise along with it. That is virtually unprecedented in the history of professional sports. Why? They understand the size and importance of the market.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector

It's a synergetic relationship, no doubt. But, it still requires "x" amount of population to support it. A media market is quite dependent on the overall population it encapsulates. Many teams have moved away from their respective, smaller markets. Cleveland's have not. And, when one did, it was the doings of a crappy owner rather than a lack of support. This is reason #1 why the NFL didn't hesitate to not only return a franchise to the area immediately but to also maintain the history and colors of the original franchise along with it. That is virtually unprecedented in the history of professional sports. Why? They understand the size and importance of the market.

Cleveland was not a small market when it gained them, and it's still large enough to keep what it has. But gaining a brand new franchise? No.

The NFL is a business, not a charity. The market at the time could still support an NFL team. Had Cleveland become a significantly smaller market and had that been the motivation for the team move, I doubt Cleveland would have a team today.

[chet_kinkaid]

Another very important factor is the demographic profile of a metro area.A csa could be numerically larger yet have stagnant growth,a population that is getting statistically older,and that area would be less attractive to any investment,or franchise.Which of the 3c's will have the best overall numbers in 50 years?Its likely Columbus will be the largest and most dynamic msa,/possibly the largest csa also.

[1watertiger]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

Cleveland was not a small market when it gained them, and it's still large enough to keep what it has. But gaining a brand new franchise? No.

The NFL is a business, not a charity. The market at the time could still support an NFL team. Had Cleveland become a significantly smaller market and had that been the motivation for the team move, I doubt Cleveland would have a team today.

And if. "Ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts we would all have a nice xmass