Which of the three C's do you think will be the most dominant power in all of Ohio by 2050? (Columbus: vs., stats)
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Mile 0 Total and % Change 2000-2010
Cincinnati: -285 -1.59%
Cleveland: +3,158 +50.02%
Columbus: +1,598 +27.47%
I'm sure the other two C's have gained quite a bit of Downtown population as well since the 2010 census, but Downtown Cleveland's 2014 population is estimated to be at 12,500.
Job growth numbers for COL in that it had less job growth rate than CIN between JUNE 2013-JUNE 2014. CLE, not counting Akron, had 1.1%. Not bad since CLE was lambasted last year as one of the largest areas to still be losing jobs, which even then wasn't accurate. Wonder why CLE's job growth isn't making a big news splash and only its inaccurate bad numbers made headlines.
CIN had 1.6%; COL 1.3%; CLE 1.1% (with Akron-Canton it would be 1.13%, without Canton it would be 1.3%). Interesting.
It's kind of misleading, though considering that the metros are not all the same size or at the same point in job recovery.
Total job growth June 2013-June 2014
Cincinnati: +16,800
Columbus: +13,000
Cleveland: +11,200
They're all relatively close to each other to the point that had a single industry done better or worse, it would've changed the ranking. Despite having a relatively good year, for example, Cleveland is still only about 69% recovered from the recession. Cincinnati is just about recovered with just over 99% regained. Columbus is well past its previous peak and has gained back about 157% of what it lost. So it's hard to argue that Columbus is underperforming in this regard.
The same discrepancy shows up in the labor force stats. First, look at the last year. Cleveland has positive growth, while the other 2 showed a decline.
Labor force change June 2013-June 2014
Cleveland: +3,087
Columbus: -2,610
Cincinnati: -5,190
But look at how June 2014 stacks up vs. the labor force lost during the recession.
% Gain from bottom
Columbus: +142.47%
Cincinnati: +50.34%
Cleveland: +38.29%
Columbus has already more than gained back what it lost while Cleveland has gained less than 40% back.
The point is that a single year shows exactly that, a short-term trend, but you can't exactly judge a metro's economic standing on a single year in a single metric. It just doesn't work that way.
I'm sure the other two C's have gained quite a bit of Downtown population as well since the 2010 census, but Downtown Cleveland's 2014 population is estimated to be at 12,500.
Keep in mind that the distance measurements are basically concentric circles around a given point and include all the population within those circles. They're useful when comparing the same square mile areas, but they're not measuring strictly to neighborhood boundaries, so they're not going to exactly match things like census tracts or CBD edges. Downtown Cleveland may very well have 12,500 people, especially given that it's including an extra 4 years past 2010.
Also, it still depends on what is being defined as "Downtown". For example, for Cleveland I use census tracts 1033, 107101, 107701 and 107802. Some might use different ones, especially for 1033 which is across the river, but in those 4 tracts, the population was 11,693 in 2010.
I'm actually trying to be fair in this. It's
why I asked you what you'd think those institutions would be and was hoping
you'd point out something specific I'd overlooked.
I'm not a clairvoyant. I don't predict the future. I can only offer some general thoughts, like... I do think the fashion industry in the city will continue to get a growing focus, and there are efforts underway to integrate that scene more into the cultural fabric of the city. I also see no reason to expect that the city's traditional amenities, like its art museum, etc. won't continue to grow. It's undergoing a significant expansion as we speak. And as I said, OSU has plans to build what they called a world-class performing arts complex on both sides of High Street, but I don't know when that's supposed to happen. It might wait until after they finish the half-billion dollar housing construction they're engaged in. But as far as what *new* things might come about beyond what can be currently built upon, I really have no idea. And that's the point, none of us really know what might be available in 40 years. Also, I think it's limiting to only reserve the term "world-class" strictly to things like museums and galleries. Almost anything of significance can be classified as such, and no one is going to agree on all of them.
Quote:
Culture makers working right now rather than a vague dream of some unknown
discovery happening out of thin air. I don't think Columbus has many flaws in
its future prospects, but this is a glaring one, similar to the way that
Cincinnati's debt issues are its glaring problem or Cleveland's long term jobs
attrition is its glaring issue. If you think that Columbus has new cultural
institutions forming right now that are on a level with Cincinnati's and
Cleveland's new cultural institutions, then point them out. But I'm guessing you
won't find as many or as many that are seen as high quality outside of Ohio,
simply because the investment in energy, time and money haven't been there and
the top creative talent leaves for better opportunities elsewhere.
No, you basically said that Columbus has no arts scene whatsoever, whether old institutional or new forms just getting started. That's an entirely elitist and false attitude and it disrespects all the artists working to improve the scene every day. You claimed before that all significant art institutions grow from nothing in an organic way, yet discount the possibility of it even beginning in Columbus. I live in a city with hundreds of museums and galleries. There are probably more in this one city than in all of Ohio put together. I don't scoff at your assertion because I don't have any experience with art or culture. I do so because I rather resent the idea that art can only be appreciated or considered "world-class" when it becomes significant enough to be known outside of a municipal boundary. 20 years ago, I might have agreed with you a bit more. Today, I don't.
Quote:
And in this, I don't think it matters much what people within Ohio think, but
what those outside Ohio think, because happening cultural institutions will be a
large part of what draws outside talent not only in the arts, but also in STEM
fields twenty years from now. I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm being
critical in an area where I feel criticism is legitimately warranted. I want to
live in Columbus. Ideally, I'd be able to move my business there as it's closer
to my partner's employer and we'd save a lot of money in commuting costs, but
the level of support for arts and the creative energy they promote aren't at the
same level and I feel my business needs that energy to thrive.
Yet Columbus attracts the most STEM jobs of all 3-Cs, already, as well as attracting the most foreign and out-of-state migration.
The point is that this entire thread is an exercise in trying to predict what might be, not what is. Whether or not you're willing to believe it, the roots of change are already there. Columbus has, if nothing else, a hugely collaborative relationship between enterprises of all types. You would not find that lacking in the least, and if Columbus is so lacking in appreciating the arts, surely you could use your business to further that cause and be on the ground floor of that revival. Or you could be lost among all those grand old institutions elsewhere.
Have you been out to 26th street around Hamilton Ave in Cleveland lately? The Leather Stallion Saloon's out there, but not much else that makes it a core area:
You wouldn't include OTR in Cincinnati's downtown, and yet you're fine with including this? It seems like a double standard to me. This was Cleveland's historic late 19th century Irish neighborhood, a subdivision of downtown in a similar way that OTR was Cincinnati's historic German neighborhood.
That's what I'm saying the difference is between the two cities "downtowns" is. It's one of arbitrary labeling, rather than one based on consistent standards across cities. Part of it may be because Cincinnati's residents tend to hold stronger neighborhood identification. They get very particular about precise neighborhood boundaries here. Historically, both cities had similarly sized downtowns and it doesn't take much to show it. Music Hall and Washington Park (both in OTR) would have been in Cincinnati's old downtown, you can see how they fit in the urban fabric and same overall city plan with City Hall, and from there downtown would have historically extended to Findlay Market and the base of the Uptown hill, about 1.7 miles from the river, which is about how far Cleveland State is from the Cuyahoga. Central Parkway is named that because it was originally the central division of Cincinnati's downtown.
Umm, CLE has seen /downtown/inner-city decline like CIN has. The area you cite has some of its industrial remants left but, if it's included in the CBD, why would it be eliminated because the area declined? Also, E 26 and Hamilton was not CLE's historic late 19th century Irish neighborhood. Euclid Avenue between E 9th and Playhouse Square has been abandoned for years; why not take it out of the CBD?
It's called having a decline in the downtown area; some areas better than others, but not removed from the downtown area because it has declined.
As we all know, Euclid Avenue in general and between Public Square and Playhouse Square in particular is transforming, the E 9 - Playhouse Square is going to be amazing when the current projects are completed.
Cleveland had a very impressive jobs month in June according to the BLS' preliminary report. It should have been big news already, you're right about that.
Mainly because everyone loves to bash CLE and gloat at its bad news. Started a long time ago. Comedy writers from CLE in L.A. writing for shows used their Cleveland humor to poke fun at the city and CLE ended up being a national joke for decades. It wasn't their intent but it caused a lot of national CLE bashing. Tim Conway, Jack Hanrahan etc. Even Drew Carey had fun using CLE for his show and now HOT in Cleveland. Clevelanders are notorious about poking fun at themselves and their city; it's called humor, like the ''tourist'' video. Some people think it's reality in CLE. Clevelanders like a laugh and certainly know how to have fun.
The River ''fire'' in 1969 etc...so tired of hearing about this. Still hearing it today, even from people born decades after the event. I've said this before, if Dallas can live down murdering John F. Kennedy then people should move on from another '60s event in CLE. Try bringing up the JFK assassination in Dallas.
Keep in mind that the distance measurements are basically concentric circles around a given point and include all the population within those circles. They're useful when comparing the same square mile areas, but they're not measuring strictly to neighborhood boundaries, so they're not going to exactly match things like census tracts or CBD edges. Downtown Cleveland may very well have 12,500 people, especially given that it's including an extra 4 years past 2010.
Also, it still depends on what is being defined as "Downtown". For example, for Cleveland I use census tracts 1033, 107101, 107701 and 107802. Some might use different ones, especially for 1033 which is across the river, but in those 4 tracts, the population was 11,693 in 2010.
By across the river, if that is the west bank only, I would include it; west of the river, above the Flats, no.
Umm, CLE has seen /downtown/inner-city decline like CIN has. The area you cite has some of its industrial remants left but, if it's included in the CBD, why would it be eliminated because the area declined? Also, E 26 and Hamilton was not CLE's historic late 19th century Irish neighborhood. Euclid Avenue between E 9th and Playhouse Square has been abandoned for years; why not take it out of the CBD?
It's called having a decline in the downtown area; some areas better than others, but not removed from the downtown area because it has declined.
As we all know, Euclid Avenue in general and between Public Square and Playhouse Square in particular is transforming, the E 9 - Playhouse Square is going to be amazing when the current projects are completed.
Again, I'm fine with Cleveland including these areas, but we should compare similar geographic areas in what would have been historic downtown Cincinnati and Columbus too. That means OTR and Pendleton.
1) North of Superior most to the bluff above the lake. In this section the Irish Catholics built their Cathedral which stands today on the same ground as it did when it was first begun in 1849. The Cathedral was remodeled in 1947, long after the neighborhood had ceased to be a residential area. But at one time this church and its school were the most populous in the Diocese. Today's Chancery Building, once the Cathedral School, was for many years the largest school in the Diocese of Cleveland; between 1867 and 1890, the enrollment of boys and girls, all of Irish parentage, numbered over 1,000. The families of these children lived in tightly packed A-frame houses, none of which survive today, on streets such as Rockwell, Lakeside, Hamilton and St. Clair, a sight hard to visualize as one beholds the vast parking lots which now occupy the same land. Babies were born in these homes, the elderly died in them and an Irish neighborhood thrived amidst the squalor of poverty born of an immigrant ghetto. To recapture the way these people lived, one must go to the picture collection of the Cleveland Public Library and there find the scenes known to Clevelanders a century ago. By 1890 commercial buildings and warehouses had begun to change this neighborhood; the children of these Irish immigrants had no intention of remaining behind in the old neighborhood. They sought and built new housing, moving out Superior, St. Clair, and Euclid to the streets east of East 55th.
Again, I'm fine with Cleveland including these areas, but we should compare similar geographic areas in what would have been historic downtown Cincinnati and Columbus too. That means OTR and Pendleton.
East side Irish don't count; only the Angle neighborhood is considered to be Cleveland's historic Irish neighborhood since it was Cleveland's Irish ghetto; then there's Ohio City itself, the near west side out to 65th Street. Of course the Irish lived all over the city, but the West Side Irish are Cleveland's real Irish, still are, but in the late 19th Century, the real Irish neighborhoods were on the West Side.
Cleveland has a very large Irish community dating back to the famine; there's a nice memorial on the river (you know, the one that caught on fire) in the Flats.
Sorry but you can't count areas the same size as downtown CLE in COL or CIN. Then let's count the same size area of COL city limits as what CIN and CLE's would be; I mean COL is ''the thing that ate Central Ohio'' look at its size in 1950 compared to today. Then let's count the same metro areas size as well. Isn't CIN and COL somethings like 15 counties; lets add 15 counties around CLE then and you can OTR in downtown CIN.
OTR is not part of downtown CIN. Again, only because it's a hip place now with people moving-in does CIN want to include it as its downtown and play games with its downtown population so it say it has the largest downtown residential population in the state; so pathetic. When it was a no-man sh##-hole, no one considered it downtown considering everyone was petrified to go there.
Sorry but you can't count areas the same size as downtown CLE in COL or CIN.
Then let's count the same size area of COL city limits as what CIN and CLE's
would be; I mean COL is ''the thing that ate Central Ohio'' look at its size in
1950 compared to today. Then let's count the same metro areas size as well.
Isn't CIN and COL somethings like 15 counties; lets add 15 counties around CLE
then and you can OTR in downtown CIN.
If all 3 cities were the same size, or roughly 78.5 square miles, here's what the populations would be like, at least in 2010.
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