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While I'd like to be optimistc about Ohio's secondary cities (2nd tier they are not, 3rd for sure) they aren't doing what makes for a great 2nd tier city. Little Madison, WI blows away all of Ohio's second cities away, no contest. Why is that the case? There are more pleasant walkable urban blocks there than the rest of those Ohio cities combined. There are more bike lanes there than all those cities combined and as a result a much higher bike mode share than all those cities combined.
It's all about turning over the city to people not in cars and making it part of official city policy is how the ball gets rolling. Short of banning cars altogether on a citywide network of streets set aside for pedestrians and bikes only with a focus on dense business districts connecting people to places they need or want to go without worrying about getting run over, I really don't see them catching up anytime soon.
Here in Minneapolis we only have 100,000 more people than Toledo, but we disproportionately have so much more to offer pound for pound and it's due in no small part to prioritizing other transportation modes over cars and investing in walkable districts. Even then we still fall short in numerous ways (still pretty car-centric) and despite the successes proving it was the right thing to do we're still fighting an uphill battle to go that extra mile to reach our city's full potential.
Gimmicks like designed entertainment districts are just that: gimmicks. Our failed Block E is a reminder of that. Adopt good zoning laws for good urbanism (high densities of mixed uses) and progressive transportation policies (away from cars) and you'll have a livable healthy city. When that yields blocks where each one offers a dozen or so destinations and they're all safely and easily accessible by foot, bike, and public transportation you all of a sudden don't need entertainment districts because you can find entertainment in just about any district along with anything else you need or want for that matter.
As stated in my post you quoted, Toledo actually has a lot of walkable areas but many of the old neighborhood business districts were abandoned due to people being more interested in a suburban type of living.
I have never been to Madison so cannot compare the two cities. But I don't think "bike lanes" makes a city moreso 2nd tier than not. Also, Toledo is still a working class, more down to earth, non-hipster type of place. Stuff that hipsters in Madison or Minneapolis enjoy are not things for the most part that Toledoans are interested in and I feel a priority on revitalization should be providing amenities that the population enjoys. But FWIW, there are way more bike lanes in Toledo than you might think. There is also a plan to create a huge bike trail that will connect a large amount of Toledo neighborhoods and parks. Ohio is a huge cyclist state as well and Toledo does have a few bicycling clubs that are heavily invested in making Toledo more safe and appealing to cyclist. We are a VERY flat city and quite a few people I know commute via bike to work due to ease of the commute even without dedicated bike lanes.
I also agree with the other poster in regards to the metropolitan area of Minneapolis being VERY different population-wise versus Toledo. I recently moved back to Toledo from Atlanta, GA which also just has about 100,000 more people in its city core versus Toledo, but they are totally different from Toledo and Atlanta is totally different from Minneapolis and many would say superior to Minneapolis even though they don't have a lot of parks or bike lanes either and are a more car-centric metro area.
Each of these places has their own culture and spirit about them. All of the cities mentioned in this thread for Ohio, are indeed 2nd tier cities. In Wisconsin, Madison IMO is considered one of their 1st tier cities. Wisconsin doesn't have all that many major urban areas like Ohio does. Minnesota doesn't either outside of Minneapolis/St. Paul there (which are 1st tier cities) really isn't any. Ohio has 3 1st tier cities and a number of 2nd tier cities. It is different from Minnesota in this regard.
ETA: Regarding the outdoor entertainment district, this is something that residents want. Basically it will be a place to party and get drunk outside lol. Toledo is considered one of the top cities where people like to get drunk. Funny and odd statistic but it is true, people like to party here, not bike. They want to sit outside in the nice springs and summers and falls we have and have a good time with family/friends.
I actually live not too far from where the new entertainment district will be (which is near some established bars and restaurants) and I don't even drink that much but I think it is a good idea considering people here like to do that sort of thing.
I lived in Toledo for 4 years, have lived in similarly-sized Lexington, KY, and now live in Nashville which is ~3x larger. Toledo has great "bones." It's got a large street grid that makes navigation easy, and it has a multitude of older neighborhood centers that are great. The problem is that those neighborhood centers are now empty and underutilized. A great example is Main Street in East Toledo. There are beautiful old buildings that line both sides in an area that is surrounded by urban single and two-family residences. It could be an incredible neighborhood that would be a magnet for creative types. The strip at North Summit & Lagrange, Broadway south of downtown, and Glendale east of Anthony Wayne Trail are all neighborhoods with great potential.
Of course, the problem is getting from what they are now to what they could be is a really, really hard series of steps that can't be legislated or incentivized into reality. Legislation or incentives might help, but ultimately there's got to be the right mix of people and circumstances that will increase land prices, rents, and disposable income.
I don't know what the "secret sauce" is that some places have. It seems like cities are vibrant for a different reasons, and Toledo hasn't yet figured out what reason people have to make its neighborhoods vibrant again. Hopefully it will happen soon.
While I'd like to be optimistc about Ohio's secondary cities (2nd tier they are not, 3rd for sure) they aren't doing what makes for a great 2nd tier city. Little Madison, WI blows away all of Ohio's second cities away, no contest. Why is that the case? There are more pleasant walkable urban blocks there than the rest of those Ohio cities combined. ...
I would argue that "walkability" is irrelevant; worse, it's a tiresome canard. Los Angeles is booming, and how about its walkability? Likewise Northern Virginia - which is notorious for its suburban sprawl and glacial traffic.
What makes a metropolitan region succeed (the city vs. suburb divide is another pointless contest; both rise or fall together) is having and attracting a large concentration of well-compensation professionals. If there's a mechanism to do so, it becomes self-sustaining. The tax-base grows, and the overall pleasantness of the region grows. Failing this, the tax-base founders, and the region passes into a decline that's difficult to reverse.
I would argue that "walkability" is irrelevant; worse, it's a tiresome canard. Los Angeles is booming, and how about its walkability? Likewise Northern Virginia - which is notorious for its suburban sprawl and glacial traffic.
What makes a metropolitan region succeed (the city vs. suburb divide is another pointless contest; both rise or fall together) is having and attracting a large concentration of well-compensation professionals. If there's a mechanism to do so, it becomes self-sustaining. The tax-base grows, and the overall pleasantness of the region grows. Failing this, the tax-base founders, and the region passes into a decline that's difficult to reverse.
I agree with this. And I agree "walkability" is overrated as are bike lanes.
Some other non-walkable places that boom outside of LA are Atlanta, GA where I lived for over 15 years. They don't even have sidewalks in many inner-city neighborhoods and like LA is VERY car-centric. They are trying to be more walkable today and get bike lanes. Houston, TX and Dallas, TX are extremely sprawled cities that are seeing tremendous growth and interest today. Many other SE cities are as well that are not walkable.
I think Mp is too "into" his/her concept of what makes a city appealing to the masses.
IMO the most important thing a city needs to appeal to people is professional jobs like ohio_peasant mentioned above. Or by having a niche market of jobs like LA does with the entertainment industry or Boston and NYC have with the financial sector (both of those also have huge historical lure as great American cities as does Chicago, which even though it has walkability and bike lanes and great public transportation is seeing a small percentage of de-population but people are still moving there, just not as high as they used to be).
Most 2nd tier cities in any state do not have a niche so they have to have a good professional job base to attract and retain a diverse (income-wise) population.
FWIW, I do think that a majority of Ohio's 2nd tier cities do have a decent professional job base, but that often people move to 2nd tier cities to escape a big city lifestyle and so the suburban areas around the 2nd tiers are usually well kept and nicer communities than the 2nd tier city itself. That is the case where I live in regards to Toledo. People here just like suburban living and having more space versus what is available in the city.
I do think that the trend toward suburban living is reversing across the country but it is less so in my area in regards to the millenial and younger generation. I also feel that public school systems play an important role in attracting young families who would be more apt to stay in the 2nd tier city. None of Ohio's 2nd tier cities have all that great public school systems in compared to their suburban communities.
Akron is #1, but Toledo's tryin.'
Dayton? Untapped potential. But still largely untapped.
All three cities have much in common for better and worse, including being an hour away from a larger city. You'd think that all three would be tied for #1.
I almost sort of group Canton with Akron, perhaps wrong, but Canton doesn't seem to wield as much influence. Honestly, I'd pick Akron to live in, because of the fact it's only 40 mins. from Cleveland. Then Dayton, although out of the group, I'd say Dayton might have the most standalone stuff, closely followed by Toledo, although it'd be tough. Dayton has more varied terrain and such, but Toledo has the lake. Youngstown would be next, and wouldn't be half bad either considering the rolling terrain and amenities it has been given from it's prominent legacy. Here's the cool thing about these cities.They are pretty quiet, and VERY affordable, and quite close to other larger cities.
Akron Metro: $123K median, 40 mins. from Cleveland, <2 hrs. from Pittsburgh and Columbus
Toledo Metro: $97K median, 55 mins. from Detroit, <2 hrs. from Cleveland
Dayton Metro: $102K median, 60 mins. from Cincinnati/Columbus, <2 hrs. from Indianapolis
Youngstown Metro: $81K median, 60 mins. from Pittsburgh, 70 mins. from Cleveland,
I've got to say, after spending a little bit of time in Youngstown, I really like that city. Interesting location, strong culture, solid architecture. I'm sad to see what's happening to it. It's too bad the politics down there are so corrupt, because the city has a lot of potential. If they could ever get their act together, and diversify their economy a bit, it could be a really great little city. Hope it's able to stop the bleeding before it's too late to reclaim some of its greatness.
Ohio is a 3rd tier state..when you think of every most states you think of something, a symbol for the state...when you think of Ohio...what do you think of?
Ohio is a 3rd tier state..when you think of every most states you think of something, a symbol for the state...when you think of Ohio...what do you think of?
Ignore the troll, folks.
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