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It won't let me rep you again, WR Native. Thank you for your
posts.
You're welcome. Watching the 5/22 NBC Nightly News angered me immensely. I've been very discouraged for several weeks about the epidemic response in Ohio and nationally, starting with DeWine's cowardly revocation after one day of the mandatory mask requirement in Ohio, then his mind-numbing proposed budget cuts. So much so in the latter case, that I didn't even want to post about it (I probably will at some point soon as I attempt to reestablish my contributions to the Ohio reporting thread).
Yet watching what is happening in Brazil and then considering President Trump's unwillingness (he's merely considering it) to impose a travel ban even on Brazil, absolutely disgusted me. Other nations have implemented very effective, total wars against the COVID-19 virus, while we flounder with half-baked (politely) measures. Instead, we pin our hopes on what are effectively "miracle" anti-viral weapons, such as vaccines, which may or may not be available on a timely basis.
The Trump gambit for winning the COVID-19 war appears to be "Warp Speed" development of what would be miraculous, perhaps even impossible, vaccines (see post 58). Of course, pharma companies gladly will be optimistic in exchange for funding in the hundreds of millions or even billions (e.g., Astra Zeneca). If their best efforts produce no vaccine or even only a somewhat effective vaccine, what do they have to lose? Remember that flu vaccines after decades of improvement often are less than 50 percent effective. Humanity has not been able to develop vaccines for the MERS or SARS coronaviruses, let alone for the coronaviruses that cause the common cold.
So once again, the Trump administration reminds us of the similarities (Big Lie propaganda techniques, disgusting and arguably slanderous belittlement and even persecution of opponents, suppression of leading experts (the destruction of the USDA Agricultural Research Service by the Trump administration is at best despicable misfeasance), ridiculous assertions of national superiority) with the Nazi regime, which also relied on the development and deployment of miracle weapons ("Wunderwaffe") to win WWII. In the end, the Nazi regime was overwhelmed by mass production and even innovative, but highly reliable Allied technology (such as especially radar, nascent but effective digital deciphering techniques, heavy bombers, "jeep" aircraft carriers to protect Atlantic convoys from German U-boats, and the Mustang long-range fighter). BTW, Ohioans can see U.S. WWII heavy bombers (B-17, B-24, and B-29) and the Mustang at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton, and there is a modified Mustang at the Crawford Auto Aviation Museum in the Cleveland History Center. The small size of the legendary Mustangs especially is shocking.
Consider even if we do have a viable vaccine by year-end, a prospect doubted by many experts both as to realization and timeliness as explained in post 58, that truly miraculous and unprecedented outcome will be too late for the start of an inevitable (given current policies) combo flu/COVID-19 season, with disastrous consequences that may rival the killer second wave of the 1918 Influenza Pandemic. Note that there also were little discussed third and fourth waves to the 1918 influenza epidemic, but hopefully Congress or a new Democratic administration by then will have implemented the proven modern strategies needed to defeat any viral epidemic.
Other nations, especially South Korea, have proven that modern science (especially reliable testing, contact tracing (digital solutions have been developed by Apple and Google), and physical or digital quarantines) when combined with aggressive policies such as travel bans and mandatory travel quarantines can contain the COVID-19 virus even in a democratic nation without significant death tolls, overwhelming hospitals and first responders, or too severely disrupting the economy. Much as in the Iraq war when the U.S. for budget reasons delayed providing U.S. troops with protections against IEDs, we are callously endangering first responders and frontline personnel whether doctors, nurses, EMS personnel, police and fire officers, transit workers, etc. Why haven't we aggressively taken steps to produce domestically and stockpile needed personnel protection equipment? What will happen if even a more severe second wave of the COVID-19/flu epidemic begins to sweep the nation in just a few months?
Gov. DeWine's greatest failure in responding to the COVID-19 epidemic is his failure and apparent unwillingness to demand that the federal government, specifically the Trump administration, adapt ASAP the NATIONWIDE anti-epidemic policies and strategies so successfully employed in other nations. Ohio will continue to pay a heavy price for DeWine's obviously servile compliance to Trump's flawed anti-COVID-19 epidemic policies.
You're welcome. Watching the 5/22 NBC Nightly News angered me immensely. I've been very discouraged for several weeks about the epidemic response in Ohio and nationally, starting with DeWine's cowardly revocation after one day of the mandatory mask requirement in Ohio, then his mind-numbing proposed budget cuts. So much so in the latter case, that I didn't even want to post about it (I probably will at some point soon as I attempt to reestablish my contributions to the Ohio reporting thread).
Yet watching what is happening in Brazil and then considering President Trump's unwillingness (he's merely considering it) to impose a travel ban even on Brazil, absolutely disgusted me. Other nations have implemented very effective, total wars against the COVID-19 virus, while we flounder with half-baked (politely) measures. Instead, we pin our hopes on what are effectively "miracle" anti-viral weapons, such as vaccines, which may or may not be available on a timely basis.
The Trump gambit for winning the COVID-19 war appears to be "Warp Speed" development of what would be miraculous, perhaps even impossible, vaccines (see post 58). Of course, pharma companies gladly will be optimistic in exchange for funding in the hundreds of millions or even billions (e.g., Astra Zeneca). If their best efforts produce no vaccine or even only a somewhat effective vaccine, what do they have to lose? Remember that flu vaccines after decades of improvement often are less than 50 percent effective. Humanity has not been able to develop vaccines for the MERS or SARS coronaviruses, let alone for the coronaviruses that cause the common cold.
So once again, the Trump administration reminds us of the similarities (Big Lie propaganda techniques, disgusting and arguably slanderous belittlement and even persecution of opponents, suppression of leading experts (the destruction of the USDA Agricultural Research Service by the Trump administration is at best despicable misfeasance), ridiculous assertions of national superiority) with the Nazi regime, which also relied on the development and deployment of miracle weapons ("Wunderwaffe") to win WWII. In the end, the Nazi regime was overwhelmed by mass production and even innovative, but highly reliable Allied technology (such as especially radar, nascent but effective digital deciphering techniques, heavy bombers, "jeep" aircraft carriers to protect Atlantic convoys from German U-boats, and the Mustang long-range fighter). BTW, Ohioans can see U.S. WWII heavy bombers (B-17, B-24, and B-29) and the Mustang at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force in Dayton, and there is a modified Mustang at the Crawford Auto Aviation Museum in the Cleveland History Center. The small size of the legendary Mustangs especially is shocking.
Consider even if we do have a viable vaccine by year-end, a prospect doubted by many experts both as to realization and timeliness as explained in post 58, that truly miraculous and unprecedented outcome will be too late for the start of an inevitable (given current policies) combo flu/COVID-19 season, with disastrous consequences that may rival the killer second wave of the 1918 Influenza Pandemic. Note that there also were little discussed third and fourth waves to the 1918 influenza epidemic, but hopefully Congress or a new Democratic administration by then will have implemented the proven modern strategies needed to defeat any viral epidemic.
Other nations, especially South Korea, have proven that modern science (especially reliable testing, contact tracing (digital solutions have been developed by Apple and Google), and physical or digital quarantines) when combined with aggressive policies such as travel bans and mandatory travel quarantines can contain the COVID-19 virus even in a democratic nation without significant death tolls, overwhelming hospitals and first responders, or too severely disrupting the economy. Much as in the Iraq war when the U.S. for budget reasons delayed providing U.S. troops with protections against IEDs, we are callously endangering first responders and frontline personnel whether doctors, nurses, EMS personnel, police and fire officers, transit workers, etc. Why haven't we aggressively taken steps to produce domestically and stockpile needed personnel protection equipment? What will happen if even a more severe second wave of the COVID-19/flu epidemic begins to sweep the nation in just a few months?
Gov. DeWine's greatest failure in responding to the COVID-19 epidemic is his failure and apparent unwillingness to demand that the federal government, specifically the Trump administration, adapt ASAP the NATIONWIDE anti-epidemic policies and strategies so successfully employed in other nations. Ohio will continue to pay a heavy price for DeWine's obviously servile compliance to Trump's flawed anti-COVID-19 epidemic policies.
If you are that frightened over current events, and you despise your fellow Ohio citizens that much, and you become so angry watching the news, I think you need to lock your doors, take a chill pill, and hide under your bed until you think it is safe to come out. In the mean time, the rest of us will be getting on with our lives.
I don't give a rat's BEhind about what Donald Trump says about the matter. It's about not living our lives in fear of being exposed to a germ. Fact is, eventually most of us will be exposed to it. Some will get sick and most will not. And when it burns out, we will move on. But living our lives in a state of paranoia is not an option.
If you are that frightened over current events, and you despise your fellow Ohio citizens that much, and you become so angry watching the news, I think you need to lock your doors, take a chill pill, and hide under your bed until you think it is safe to come out. In the mean time, the rest of us will be getting on with our lives.
I don't give a rat's BEhind about what Donald Trump says about the matter. It's about not living our lives in fear of being exposed to a germ. Fact is, eventually most of us will be exposed to it. Some will get sick and most will not. And when it burns out, we will move on. But living our lives in a state of paranoia is not an option.
Spoken like a self-centered individual, who is actually indifferent to the lives of the vulnerable and even to health care workers, first responders, and truly essential workers, often low-paid, on the front lines keeping our society functional.
You falsely accuse me of despising my fellow Ohioans, when I'm in despair about the unnecessary sacrifices to their health, wealth, and happiness and well-being they are undergoing due to inept policies. What Ohioan wouldn't have chosen the COVID-19 epidemic outcomes achieved in South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, or even Greece, if given an informed choice???
You apparently believe that the elderly, even those in good physical condition, and those with pre-existing conditions that make COVID-19 a potential death sentence, are somehow deficient compared to jackasses who falsely believe they possess superior courage by needlessly exposing themselves to COVID-19.
Do you think you are more brave than the doctors and nurses who go to great lengths to prevent the virus from infecting their families, often physically isolating themselves from their families? They actually are on the front lines fighting this epidemic, many have contracted the virus, and some, too many, have died. They show courage EVERY day just doing their jobs, and IMO have more courage in their little finger than the shallow idiots who believe this epidemic is an exaggerated crisis that will simply, often even "magically," just go away.
Smallpox just didn't go away, tuberculosis and polio just didn't go away. I'm old enough to remember TB, when Ohio teachers had to have yearly lung X-rays and school children were given annual patch tests. I remember and even experienced the ravages of polio, and the nationwide profound relief and joy when polio vaccines first were introduced.
Now, we have a society where too many believe that we should ignore modern epidemiological science and just let viruses wash over us. Too many Americans reject vaccines, while indirectly benefiting from the herd immunity created by vaccines even as the anti-vaccine cult constantly threatens that herd mentality. Such ridiculousness, to my knowledge, was totally absent from the 1950s American mentality, certainly in my family headed by an industrial worker and an elementary school teacher. Of course Americans of that era, understood how, despite great losses, they had been relatively spared from the catastrophe of World War II by relatively exemplary leadership; scientific, medical, industrial, and military expertise; and by extraordinary shared sacrifice determined by dynamic (evolving), highly effective policy choices.
Are you indifferent to the first responders who have lost family members where the first responders surely were the source of the transmission???
Do you possess no anger over the continued shortages of personal protection equipment endured by health care workers and first responders, let alone the American people in general? Home-made cloth masks? In the 21st century, and months into this epidemic???
Do you possess no anger over the highly deficient response relative to other developed nations of our federal government in this crisis? Do you support the unwillingness of the current Ohio administration to provide a transparent record of testing and other statistics vital to a public understanding of the effectiveness of Ohio's epidemic response? While Ohio, let alone the nation, refuses to even mandate the use of masks, Europe is all-in in quashing this epidemic, not tolerating even the minor flaunting of the rules by political leaders.
<<Austrian president apologizes after breaking coronavirus curfew
The restaurant — which was officially shut down at the time, according to the newspaper — could face a fine of up to €30,000 [over $30,000] for breaking the rules.>>
As the U.S. continues to plummet down the rabbit hole created by the pathetic response of our leadership to the COVID-19 epidemic, other nations as noted have already managed to escape with many, many fewer per capita deaths and immensely smaller harm to their health systems and to their economies. Do you actually applaud and support the almost Third World response to this epidemic that has taken place in the U.S.??? What will the nation think come September and we're still grappling with this epidemic and wondering how we can safely educate the nation's youth?
The general use of masks would greatly reduce the transmission rate of this virus, yet too many Americans believe that their liberty is threatened when required to make a small personal sacrifice in order to save lives and reduce the immense burden being placed on our hospitals and on our economy.
The reality is that it's not cowardice that causes persons to protect themselves from the COVID-19 epidemic, its predominately three things that is lacking in your mentality.
1) A profound sense of the value of their personal lives, not only to themselves but to others. The elderly often are caretakers, educators and surely mentors to younger generations. Why would anybody encourage them to needlessly sacrifice themselves as a matter of false bravery???
2) Some persons have empathy for those much more exposed to this epidemic, whether those with pre-existing conditions (including those undergoing medical treatments that weaken the immune system, such as with cancer patients), or those forced to work in perilous conditions to support their families, such as meat-packers. We (I include myself in this group) actively want to do everything we can do to reduce the threat to health care workers, first responders and essential workers.
3) Some large percentage of economically informed Americans understand well the immediate and long-term damage that is being inflicted on America. We understand that COVID-19 patients consume immense amounts of already scarce medical resources, often individually requiring weeks of treatment in ICU units. We fully grasp that many Americans won't fully participate in the services economy until the COVID-19 threat has been greatly diminished, let alone eliminated. Services constitute over 75 percent of American GDP.
We understand the consequences of a significant percentage of American businesses being lost forever, the forecasts of 10 percent plus unemployment, and the heavy burden placed on future generations by significantly increased debt and reduced wealth as already meager savings are depleted for a large percentage of Americans and their families. We understand the ravages of food insecurity, and the lasting consequences of impaired education quality and social development for the nation's youth.
As the U.S. continues to plummet down the rabbit hole created by the pathetic response of our leadership to the COVID-19 epidemic, some nations as noted have managed to escape with many, many fewer per capita deaths and much less harm for the economies. Now many other nations, such as those in Europe have learned from the models set by these best practices nations, while we continue to stumble along placing our hopes on yet to exist proven vaccines and anti-viral treatments. E.g., the U.K. and France now are implementing Austalian-like mandatory quarantines for international travelers, we aren't even discussing such actions. Robust NATIONAL testing, contract tracing and quarantine programs are becoming the norm, but not in the U.S.
So the attitude expressed in your post disgusts me, and not only for its unwarranted hubris. It represents a continued decline in the aspirational rationality that truly made America great. Such greatness stems from the hard application of informed logic based on empirical evidence. Ineffective policies supported by "Big Lie" propaganda and foisted on a large segment of our population by certain political leaders and their media enablers are a prescription for decline.
On a personal note, I've had a life-long contempt for both verbal and physical bullies. I've always found them to be insecure cowards and mostly incompetents.
Spoken like a self-centered individual, who is actually indifferent to the lives of the vulnerable and even to health care workers, first responders, and truly essential workers, often low-paid, on the front lines keeping our society functional.
You falsely accuse me of despising my fellow Ohioans, when I'm in despair about the unnecessary sacrifices to their health, wealth, and happiness and well-being they are undergoing due to inept policies. What Ohioan wouldn't have chosen the COVID-19 epidemic outcomes achieved in South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, or even Greece, if given an informed choice???
You apparently believe that the elderly, even those in good physical condition, and those with pre-existing conditions that make COVID-19 a potential death sentence, are somehow deficient compared to jackasses who falsely believe they possess superior courage by needlessly exposing themselves to COVID-19.
Do you think you are more brave than the doctors and nurses who go to great lengths to prevent the virus from infecting their families, often physically isolating themselves from their families? They actually are on the front lines fighting this epidemic, many have contracted the virus, and some, too many, have died. They show courage EVERY day just doing their jobs, and IMO have more courage in their little finger than the shallow idiots who believe this epidemic is an exaggerated crisis that will simply, often even "magically," just go away.
Smallpox just didn't go away, tuberculosis and polio just didn't go away. I'm old enough to remember TB, when Ohio teachers had to have yearly lung X-rays and school children were given annual patch tests. I remember and even experienced the ravages of polio, and the nationwide profound relief and joy when polio vaccines first were introduced.
Now, we have a society where too many believe that we should ignore modern epidemiological science and just let viruses wash over us. Too many Americans reject vaccines, while indirectly benefiting from the herd immunity created by vaccines even as the anti-vaccine cult constantly threatens that herd mentality. Such ridiculousness, to my knowledge, was totally absent from the 1950s American mentality, certainly in my family headed by an industrial worker and an elementary school teacher. Of course Americans of that era, understood how, despite great losses, they had been relatively spared from the catastrophe of World War II by relatively exemplary leadership; scientific, medical, industrial, and military expertise; and by extraordinary shared sacrifice determined by dynamic (evolving), highly effective policy choices.
Are you indifferent to the first responders who have lost family members where the first responders surely were the source of the transmission???
Do you possess no anger over the continued shortages of personal protection equipment endured by health care workers and first responders, let alone the American people in general? Home-made cloth masks? In the 21st century, and months into this epidemic???
Do you possess no anger over the highly deficient response relative to other developed nations of our federal government in this crisis? Do you support the unwillingness of the current Ohio administration to provide a transparent record of testing and other statistics vital to a public understanding of the effectiveness of Ohio's epidemic response? While Ohio, let alone the nation, refuses to even mandate the use of masks, Europe is all-in in quashing this epidemic, not tolerating even the minor flaunting of the rules by political leaders.
<<Austrian president apologizes after breaking coronavirus curfew
The restaurant — which was officially shut down at the time, according to the newspaper — could face a fine of up to €30,000 [over $30,000] for breaking the rules.>>
As the U.S. continues to plummet down the rabbit hole created by the pathetic response of our leadership to the COVID-19 epidemic, other nations as noted have already managed to escape with many, many fewer per capita deaths and immensely smaller harm to their health systems and to their economies. Do you actually applaud and support the almost Third World response to this epidemic that has taken place in the U.S.??? What will the nation think come September and we're still grappling with this epidemic and wondering how we can safely educate the nation's youth?
The general use of masks would greatly reduce the transmission rate of this virus, yet too many Americans believe that their liberty is threatened when required to make a small personal sacrifice in order to save lives and reduce the immense burden being placed on our hospitals and on our economy.
The reality is that it's not cowardice that causes persons to protect themselves from the COVID-19 epidemic, its predominately three things that is lacking in your mentality.
1) A profound sense of the value of their personal lives, not only to themselves but to others. The elderly often are caretakers, educators and surely mentors to younger generations. Why would anybody encourage them to needlessly sacrifice themselves as a matter of false bravery???
2) Some persons have empathy for those much more exposed to this epidemic, whether those with pre-existing conditions (including those undergoing medical treatments that weaken the immune system, such as with cancer patients), or those forced to work in perilous conditions to support their families, such as meat-packers. We (I include myself in this group) actively want to do everything we can do to reduce the threat to health care workers, first responders and essential workers.
3) Some large percentage of economically informed Americans understand well the immediate and long-term damage that is being inflicted on America. We understand that COVID-19 patients consume immense amounts of already scarce medical resources, often individually requiring weeks of treatment in ICU units. We fully grasp that many Americans won't fully participate in the services economy until the COVID-19 threat has been greatly diminished, let alone eliminated. Services constitute over 75 percent of American GDP.
We understand the consequences of a significant percentage of American businesses being lost forever, the forecasts of 10 percent plus unemployment, and the heavy burden placed on future generations by significantly increased debt and reduced wealth as already meager savings are depleted for a large percentage of Americans and their families. We understand the ravages of food insecurity, and the lasting consequences of impaired education quality and social development for the nation's youth.
As the U.S. continues to plummet down the rabbit hole created by the pathetic response of our leadership to the COVID-19 epidemic, some nations as noted have managed to escape with many, many fewer per capita deaths and much less harm for the economies. Now many other nations, such as those in Europe have learned from the models set by these best practices nations, while we continue to stumble along placing our hopes on yet to exist proven vaccines and anti-viral treatments. E.g., the U.K. and France now are implementing Austalian-like mandatory quarantines for international travelers, we aren't even discussing such actions. Robust NATIONAL testing, contract tracing and quarantine programs are becoming the norm, but not in the U.S.
So the attitude expressed in your post disgusts me, and not only for its unwarranted hubris. It represents a continued decline in the aspirational rationality that truly made America great. Such greatness stems from the hard application of informed logic based on empirical evidence. Ineffective policies supported by "Big Lie" propaganda and foisted on a large segment of our population by certain political leaders and their media enablers are a prescription for decline.
On a personal note, I've had a life-long contempt for both verbal and physical bullies. I've always found them to be insecure cowards and mostly incompetents.
Okay. You make some good points. I apologize if I came on a little too strong. We have different opinions about what is going on and where it will eventually take us. In six months we'll have a better idea of where things are going. You believe it will be much worse. I believe it will be better.
Anyway, I've made my opinions known and don't plan to write any more on the issue.
"The taverns are fair full of gadabouts making merry this eve. And though I may press my face against the window like an urchin at a confectioner's, I am tempted not by the sweetmeats within. A dram in exchange for the pox is an ill bargain indeed." - Samuel Pepys (17th c. London, plague outbreak)
"The taverns are fair full of gadabouts making merry this eve. And though I may press my face against the window like an urchin at a confectioner's, I am tempted not by the sweetmeats within. A dram in exchange for the pox is an ill bargain indeed." - Samuel Pepys (17th c. London, plague outbreak)
Well that's unfortunate. Was hoping that was actually a real quote.
What's also unfortunate is that in light of this whole pandemic, it's clear that there are 3 types of mindsets.
1. Those who don't wear masks in public because they simply don't understand that they can transmit the virus to others even if they don't have symptoms.
2. Those who don't wear masks in public and do understand that they can transmit the virus to others even if they don't have symptoms. We group these people in the POS idiots category.
3. Those who wear masks because they don't want to transfer a virus to others that they may not even know they have, but are mindful and respectful of other citizens simply because it's the right thing to do.
Does someone actually want to be the one who's knowingly responsible for passing the virus onto someone else and they catch it and die because they had a pre-existing condition? All they had to do was wear a mask to avoid the possibility. The number of cases, number of deaths, % of survival is all irrelevant in this context. It's the fact that it's even a possibility that someone with no mask or symptoms can give the virus to someone with a pre-existing condition or not should be reason enough to wear the mask. I for one won't be the person who unknowingly transfers the virus to someone else because of not wearing a mask.
Welcome to America in 2020 where expecting the same from others is too much to ask for. Thanks to all that fall into group #3. You're doing it the right way and are a better person because of it.
Well that's unfortunate. Was hoping that was actually a real quote.
What's also unfortunate is that in light of this whole pandemic, it's clear that there are 3 types of mindsets.
1. Those who don't wear masks in public because they simply don't understand that they can transmit the virus to others even if they don't have symptoms.
2. Those who don't wear masks in public and do understand that they can transmit the virus to others even if they don't have symptoms. We group these people in the POS idiots category.
3. Those who wear masks because they don't want to transfer a virus to others that they may not even know they have, but are mindful and respectful of other citizens simply because it's the right thing to do.
Does someone actually want to be the one who's knowingly responsible for passing the virus onto someone else and they catch it and die because they had a pre-existing condition? All they had to do was wear a mask to avoid the possibility. The number of cases, number of deaths, % of survival is all irrelevant in this context. It's the fact that it's even a possibility that someone with no mask or symptoms can give the virus to someone with a pre-existing condition or not should be reason enough to wear the mask. I for one won't be the person who unknowingly transfers the virus to someone else because of not wearing a mask.
Welcome to America in 2020 where expecting the same from others is too much to ask for. Thanks to all that fall into group #3. You're doing it the right way and are a better person because of it.
I see people wearing masks, taking them off all the time, playing around with them, not covering there noses etc. It's just a symbol at this point tbqh.
Appalling lack of social distancing at the protest today. Wait 2 weeks friends!
A symbol? No, it’s something that can potentially save someone’s life. Are idiots not wearing them
correctly and taking them off when they shouldn’t? Sure. You can’t fix stupid. I’ll continue to wear mine properly to minimize the chances of infecting others in case I have it with no symptoms. The biggest problem is not being able to test everyone even if they don’t have symptoms.
There’s a video of 20 police officers standing around with no masks on having an outdoor meeting. Way for them to set the example.
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