Do you consider Ohio "Midwest" or "Back East?" (Cincinnati: agricultural, farm)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Because people from the East Coast don't want to be associated with Ohio; they look down on us. They conveniently ignore little things like Ohio is separated from the New York state line by 39 miles. Or you can easily have lunch in Columbus and drive to Washington, D.C. and be there in time for dinner. Or that Pittsburgh is closer to Cincinnati than it is to Philadelphia.
When I lived in Wyoming, Ohio was always referred to as "back East." People in Wyoming and Colorado really made no distinction between Cleveland and, say, Philly. It's all "back East" to them. But my friend from NYC who lived out there when I did was horrified when the Cheyenne locals referred to Ohio as "East."
It's all perspective. It's clear that Ohio is in the eastern U.S., but it is not East Coast. I don't know how anyone can look at a map and not come to that conclusion. It's also not really Midwest and has little in common with Nebraska, which is also conveniently lumped into the "Midwest" region by people who don't want to be associated with it.
Everyone considers Utah to be in the West: It's in the same position in relation to the West as Ohio is to the East. Everyone considers Wyoming to be in the West, though it's a lot farther from Wyoming to the West Coast than Ohio is from the East Coast.
Because people from the East Coast don't want to be associated with Ohio; they look down on us. They conveniently ignore little things like Ohio is separated from the New York state line by 39 miles. Or you can easily have lunch in Columbus and drive to Washington, D.C. and be there in time for dinner. Or that Pittsburgh is closer to Cincinnati than it is to Philadelphia.
When I lived in Wyoming, Ohio was always referred to as "back East." People in Wyoming and Colorado really made no distinction between Cleveland and, say, Philly. It's all "back East" to them. But my friend from NYC who lived out there when I did was horrified when the Cheyenne locals referred to Ohio as "East."
It's all perspective. It's clear that Ohio is in the eastern U.S., but it is not East Coast. I don't know how anyone can look at a map and not come to that conclusion. It's also not really Midwest and has little in common with Nebraska, which is also conveniently lumped into the "Midwest" region by people who don't want to be associated with it.
Everyone considers Utah to be in the West: It's in the same position in relation to the West as Ohio is to the East. Everyone considers Wyoming to be in the West, though it's a lot farther from Wyoming to the West Coast than Ohio is from the East Coast.
I have some friends from California, and no matter what I have said about the state, and though they seem to remain dubious that it's not a Kansas backwater, they definitely consider it back east AND Midwest. It's really all relative.
Ohio is a Midwestern state. It behaves like one. Columbus, Dayton and Toledo are the most quintessentially Midwestern cities in Ohio. Cincinnati, even though it does have some central Appalachian influences, is still a Midwestern city at its core. Cleveland and Akron, even though they do have some Northeastern influences, are still Midwestern cities at their cores as well.
Don't underestimate or discount the influence of state lines. State government policy is a reflection of regional culture as well. Any policy that's dictated in Columbus affects Cleveland, Akron and Cincinnati just as much as it does Dayton or Toledo, so if Ohio behaves like a Midwestern state, then Midwestern-style government policy is going to influence the culture of the entire state.
Across the state line in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, though it has some Midwestern and northern Appalachian influences, is still a Northeastern city at its core. Yes, it's closer to Cleveland and Cincinnati than it is to Philadelphia, but there's no state line separating Pittsburgh from Philadelphia like there is separating it from Cleveland and Cincinnati. Pittsburgh is influenced by government policies dictated in Harrisburg, not Columbus. Pennsylvania behaves like a Northeastern state, so Northeastern-style government policy will have a cultural influence on the entire state, including Pittsburgh.
State lines can have cultural impacts as well. In Ohio, Youngstown is considered the oddball. It's the only large city in Ohio that's located firmly in the Allegheny Plateau, and its development patterns resemble those of western Pennsylvania more than they do the rest of Ohio. It's also closer to Pittsburgh via Interstate travel (65 miles) than it is to Cleveland (72 miles). In spite of all this, the majority of sports fans in Youngstown cheer for the Browns and other Cleveland teams, and Ohio State in major college sports.
In Pennsylvania, Erie is considered the oddball. It's the only large city in Pennsylvania that's located on the Great Lakes, and its development patterns resemble those of the old "Western Reserve" cities more than than they do the rest of Pennsylvania. It's also closer to both Buffalo (96 miles) and Cleveland (98 miles) than it is to Pittsburgh (125 miles). In spite of all this, the majority of sports fans in Erie cheer for the Steelers and other Pittsburgh teams, and Penn State in major college sports.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Ohio is a Midwestern state, as are all its cities in spite of some Northeastern influence in the eastern part of the state, and state lines have a direct influence on the culture and policies of a city.
^ Spoken with true arrogance of someone who thinks he lives in the northeast and that his city/state is better than Ohio. You must really view Pittsburgh as mingling at wine tastings with Boston and NYC, while Cleveland and Cincinnati are slumming it with the likes Omaha and Des Moines, huh?
You're city is about 90 minutes from Cleveland, and much closer to Youngstown than that. If Youngstown isn't northeast, neither are you. And I love how you imply that the Ohio-Pennsylvania state line is a cultural Berlin Wall of sorts, though I doubt you'd make the same distinction for the Ohio-Indiana border.
Ohio is a hybrid state: It doesn't really fit into any region entirely. It's not Midwestern in the sense of Iowa or Nebraska, and it's not Eastern in the sense of Maryland or New Jersey. It's a mish-mash of three distinct converging regions that all meet in Ohio (East, Midwest and even the South). To simply dismiss it as Midwest isn't understanding Ohio's dynamics, its cities or the people who live there.
Oh, and Erie roots for the Steelers because they win. If the Bills or Browns won as much as the Steelers do, Erie would slant toward those teams as well.
^ Spoken with true arrogance of someone who thinks he lives in the northeast and that his city/state is better than Ohio. You must really view Pittsburgh as mingling at wine tastings with Boston and NYC, while Cleveland and Cincinnati are slumming it with the likes Omaha and Des Moines, huh?
You're city is about 90 minutes from Cleveland, and much closer to Youngstown than that. If Youngstown isn't northeast, neither are you. And I love how you imply that the Ohio-Pennsylvania state line is a cultural Berlin Wall of sorts, though I doubt you'd make the same distinction for the Ohio-Indiana border.
Ohio is a hybrid state: It doesn't really fit into any region entirely. It's not Midwestern in the sense of Iowa or Nebraska, and it's not Eastern in the sense of Maryland or New Jersey. It's a mish-mash of three distinct converging regions that all meet in Ohio (East, Midwest and even the South). To simply dismiss it as Midwest isn't understanding Ohio's dynamics, its cities or the people who live there.
Oh, and Erie roots for the Steelers because they win. If the Bills or Browns won as much as the Steelers do, Erie would slant toward those teams as well.
Whoa! Where did that come from? Sounds like Gnutella really struck a chord with you. I'm not sure how you interpreted his/her post as arrogance. I found nothing condescending about it and thought it was a very truthful and well written post.
Whoa! Where did that come from? Sounds like Gnutella really struck a chord with you. I'm not sure how you interpreted his/her post as arrogance. I found nothing condescending about it and thought it was a very truthful and well written post.
He and I have disagreed on this in the past before. Somehow he reads a superiority complex into my posts, and labels me arrogant even though he's the one who just threw Omaha and Des Moines under the bus, and implied that sports fans in Erie are bandwagoners. He also put words in my mouth, suggesting that I believe that Pittsburgh and Boston have much of a connection, even though I've said before, elsewhere, that Pittsburgh doesn't have much of a connection with New England. I have, however, said that Pittsburgh is much more connected with New York, Philadelphia and Washington DC than people realize, and apparently the data agrees with me too:
Gross migration between Pittsburgh and other MSAs (2000-2008)
22,190 - Washington, DC
20,864 - Philadelphia, PA
18,419 - New York, NY
14,758 - Youngstown, OH
10,002 - Cleveland, OH
9,722 - Erie, PA
9,181 - Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, FL
8,761 - Tampa/St. Petersburg, FL
8,677 - Columbus, OH
8,514 - Chicago, IL
(NOTE: Gross migration is defined as the number of people moving into a MSA plus the number of people moving out.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Renn
What we see from this view is a strong alignment with major East Coast metros as well as a secondary flow through the emerging Tech Belt between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
To elaborate, this illustrates how connected Pittsburgh is with the major MSAs in the Mid-Atlantic. It also illustrates how Pittsburgh has little connection with any place west of Ohio. In fact, the only MSA on the list above that's west of Ohio is Chicago, and it's #10 on the list.
Just because Pittsburgh has a strong connection with Ohio doesn't mean that it has a strong connection with the rest of the Midwest by extension. I don't see Detroit, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Milwaukee or St. Louis on that list. I do see Washington DC, Philadelphia and New York running the top three, though.
And here's a chart illustrating the gross migration between Chicago and other MSAs:
While Cleveland doesn't have a super-strong connection with Chicago, it still trades twice as many people with Chicago as Pittsburgh does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Renn
From this you could probably trace the outline of Chicago’s real sphere of influence from a human capital network perspective. Those top five cities clearly have a tighter relationship with Chicago than the rest. Pittsburgh and Louisville unsurprisingly bring up the rear. They are dubious as Midwest cities to begin with, and this just helps illustrate why.
Incidentally, the low standing of Pittsburgh on Chicago’s migration list, combined with its own East Coast orientation shows perfectly why Penn State has no business being in the Big Ten (IMHO). Also, while there might be a megaregion called Chi-Pitts, it’s not clear to me if Pittsburgh is really in it. Perhaps the are actually a couple of regions in the area from a human capital perspective, one centered on Chicago and another from the remains of the old metals region. This is an area for further research.
(Aaron Renn is a native of Louisville and has spent most of his working years in Chicago, although he moved to New York less than a year ago.)
Cleveland trades more people with Chicago than Pittsburgh does, and conversely, Pittsburgh trades more people with New York than Cleveland does. I had the data on Cleveland's gross migration with other MSAs posted somewhere on this site, but I haven't been able to find it. I do remember, however, the difference between New York and Chicago on Cleveland's list vis-a-vis Pittsburgh's. On Cleveland's list, Chicago is #4 and New York is #7. On Pittsburgh's list, as you can see above, New York is #3 and Chicago is #10. I'm not trying to knock Cleveland, and I don't ever recall saying anything bad about the Midwest, but the truth is, Cleveland is more connected with the rest of the Midwest than it is with the Northeast, and Pittsburgh is more connected with the rest of the Northeast than it is with the Midwest, and there is some hard data that illustrates this.
And while the Pennsylvania/Ohio state line isn't a hard dividing line, a transition does exist along and near it, and the transition seems to be made pretty quickly too. Honestly, when I was growing up, I always felt like western and central Pennsylvania had a vibe that was most similar to upstate New York and northern West Virginia, and the only part of Ohio that really felt all that similar to western Pennsylvania was the east-central part around East Liverpool, Steubenville, Cambridge and St. Clairsville. North of that and you get into "Western Reserve" territory. West of that and you get into quintessential Ohio. South of that and you get more of a central Appalachian vibe than a northern Appalachian vibe. (Think more Charleston and less Morgantown.)
Lastly, somebody in a similar topic on the General U.S. board made the good point that no region of the country is monolithic. The Midwest can be divided into the Great Lakes, the Great Plains and the upper Midwest. It's all the Midwest. The South can be divided into the Atlantic South, the deep South, the Mid-South, the Gulf South, southern Appalachia and the Southern Piedmont. It's all the South. The West can be divided into the Pacific coast and the interior West. It's all the West. And if the West can be divided like that, then Northeast can be divided into New England, the Mid-Atlantic, and the interior Northeast, and have it all be the Northeast.
Last edited by Craziaskowboi; 02-21-2012 at 05:10 PM..
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,540,027 times
Reputation: 6253
Interior northeast AKA northern Appalachia. Save for the Ontario plains.
About Ohio though, I read something about people from the northeast looking down on Ohio? That's not true at all! We always considered Ohio and Michigan close cousins.
NYC and Boston laugh at Pittsburgh. And Philly doesn't want much to do with you either. But, whatever lets you sleep at night ...
Then why do New York and Philadelphia exchange so many people with Pittsburgh? And it's not a lop-sided exchange either. Here's a report illustrating migration trends in Pittsburgh between 2009 and 2010. The chart on page 9, and especially the maps on page 10, illustrate my point.
You'll notice on the maps the size and density of the circles across Pennsylvania to the Mid-Atlantic coast. You'll also notice that the circles get a lot smaller west of Columbus. Hell, Pittsburgh trades about as many people with the Carolinas and Georgia as it does with Michigan, Indiana and Illinois.
And if you examine the chart, you'll see Baltimore and Boston on it, but you won't see Detroit or Cincinnati, which means that even though Pittsburgh doesn't trade a huge number of people with Baltimore or Boston, it still trades more with them than it does with Detroit or Cincinnati. Not that it trades nobody with Detroit or Cincinnati, just not as many as people think.
Now you can keep reading more into my posts than what I've presented, but it won't change the fact that Pittsburgh networks heavily the Mid-Atlantic and has a strong easterly focus, with Columbus and the cities in eastern Ohio being notable exceptions.
Quite frankly, I think you might be the one with the negative opinion of the Midwest here, given how defensive you got when I suggested that Cleveland is basically a Midwestern city with a few Northeastern characteristics.
Last edited by Craziaskowboi; 02-22-2012 at 02:31 AM..
Ohio is midwest. But if you want to be specific it is "midwest but more eastern than any other midwestern state." The state is really the crossroads of the east, midwest, and south.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
