[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

I find your reference to belief structures that do not follow your version of the "norm" to be highly offensive.

LOL. And your reference to white people not being human? Nothing offense about that?

Get over it.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by nightbird47

I was refering to Wicca and other neo pagan religions which may not be organized in the same way but are legally recognized as religions, even by the military.

Right, I wish I knew how City-Data collected this info. It seems to me that if someone can identify himself as "Religion X", then he ought to be counted as affiliated with "Religion X" - whether or not he belongs to a formal organization.

Is there a pre-Christian Cherokee religion that has an identifiable set of beliefs? And do non-Christian Cherokees follow this religion?

Originally Posted by nightbird47

Most neopagan religions are still rather private and often solitary ...

OK, but surely you can understand that it's hard to categorize home-cooked do-it-yourself religious beliefs as anything other than "whatever".

Originally Posted by nightbird47

...but this is largely because of harrassment by zeloious christans.

I don't believe that for a second.

Originally Posted by nightbird47

Interestingly with my pent I had people stop me in the IE in California, which has a strong evangelical bent, wishing to 'save' me. Here in Oklahoma, nobody has had a problem.

Probably in Oklahoma it's easier to assume that you have already been exposed to the Christian message, and who wants to cast pearls?

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Right, I wish I knew how City-Data collected this info. It seems to me that if someone can identify himself as "Religion X", then he ought to be counted as affiliated with "Religion X" - whether or not he belongs to a formal organization.

Is there a pre-Christian Cherokee religion that has an identifiable set of beliefs? And do non-Christian Cherokees follow this religion?



OK, but surely you can understand that it's hard to categorize home-cooked do-it-yourself religious beliefs as anything other than "whatever".



I don't believe that for a second.



Probably in Oklahoma it's easier to assume that you have already been exposed to the Christian message, and who wants to cast pearls?

I would assume its asked and whatever answer given is accepted. This would include anything recognized as a religion. Pagan beliefs which are often practiced outside of an organization are just as proper as the solitary christan who does not feel they must be part of a church but is still a christian. I'm sure there are some natives who practice their traditional beliefs without needing an organization and might not be counted as 'religious'.

When people could not make openly public when they would meet since christan zelots would come and harrass its quite real. I had people stop me and wish to 'save' me as well, when they noticed the pent. That these people think they have that right is why I took to wearing it. We have the right to believe what we choose and nobody has the right to tell us not to.

I think in Oklahoma while people are very religious and it figures in their life, they don't feel the need to convince themselves they are right like the zelots seem to need to. I am glad for them that they have found their path and that I have found mine, since that is how its supposed to be. Blessed be.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by nightbird47

I would assume its asked and whatever answer given is accepted. This would include anything recognized as a religion ...

That would be the most accurate method, but also the most difficult. It's much easier just to contact different religious organizations and ask for head counts. So I'm not sure that City-Data actually does a survey of the population or obtains this kind of data.

Originally Posted by nightbird47

I'm sure there are some natives who practice their traditional beliefs without needing an organization and might not be counted as 'religious'.

Indeed. The same would be true of some Christians. All of these people would fall through the cracks unless specifically asked.

Originally Posted by nightbird47

When people could not make openly public when they would meet since christan zelots would come and harrass its quite real. I had people stop me and wish to 'save' me as well, when they noticed the pent. That these people think they have that right is why I took to wearing it. We have the right to believe what we choose and nobody has the right to tell us not to.

Honestly, I think you are confusing evangelism and attempts at persuasion with "persecution". They are not the same thing. You may have the political right to believe as you choose, but others have the same right to argue against your beliefs. The last I checked it was not illegal to talk to strangers in public spaces, even about religion.

Originally Posted by nightbird47

I think in Oklahoma while people are very religious and it figures in their life, they don't feel the need to convince themselves they are right like the zelots seem to need to. I am glad for them that they have found their path and that I have found mine, since that is how its supposed to be. Blessed be.

I feel quite certain that, on balance, Christians in Oklahoma are no less convinced of the truth of their beliefs than Christians in California. If you believe that you have found the truth, and the truth is important, then you will want to share it with others. In Oklahoma, which is far more religious than California, it's safe to assume that the lady with the pent has already heard the Gospel and rejected it. And so most people don't bother you. We can't make those assumptions in California.

[Griffis]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

So, Cherokees don't believe that white people are "real people" or humans? Fascinating. I guess it's not racism if the "people" you hate aren't people at all!

You have to understand, this isn't some popular expression or recent development. Cherokee have long called themselves Real People or Human Beings.

As Goodpasture correctly stated, the common modern term for white people in Cherokee culture is "yonega" which simply means "white." And it has been in use a long time.

Personally, while I can't prove the accuracy of it, and am certainly not an expert of Cherokee history, I believe the "not real people/not human beings" initially came into use because early white Euro-immigrants were seen as different in a number of respects (obviously) and the term became a way to merely distinguish "us" from "them."

Bear in mind also that the Cherokee (like many tribes) have a long memory of anguish and loss caused by whites in this nation. Massacres, the (frequently intentional) spread of disease, forced removals (read up on the Trail of Tears), forced settlements, re-removals, re-settlements, broken promises, land given and taken away, children removed from families and forced into "Christian" schools where they were prohibited from using their native language or keeping their native customs and beliefs...and this was not all so very long ago, really.

You know, when a nation--like America--is essentially built on the enslavement of one people and the genocide and marginalization of another, one might expect there to be some unhappy feelings.

[Griffis]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Is there a pre-Christian Cherokee religion that has an identifiable set of beliefs? And do non-Christian Cherokees follow this religion?

Yes.

OK, but surely you can understand that it's hard to categorize home-cooked do-it-yourself religious beliefs as anything other than "whatever".

Much of what you seem to be calling "home cooked diy religious beliefs" go back much further than Christianity which, in a global, historical sense, is really a young, upstart religion compared with most others.

Spiritual beliefs and practices go back much further than Christianity and even Judaism.

Now, I do agree that there are a lot of people who practice a kind of hodge podge of a little paganism here, little Wicca there, little "New Age" whatever, bits of ritual magic, etc.

And what's wrong with that? If a person finds something of a divine nature which resonates with them and works for them and fulfills them at this level, who are you, or me, or who is anyone else to deride those beliefs?

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

If you believe that you have found the truth, and the truth is important, then you will want to share it with others.

This brings to mind a great quote from Vaclav Havel:

"Keep company with those who seek the Truth. Run from those who have found it."

[dvxhd]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

So, Cherokees don't believe that white people are "real people" or humans? Fascinating. I guess it's not racism if the "people" you hate aren't people at all!

That's why people make up derogatory words to describe others. It makes it easier to hate a (insert word here) than a fellow human. You've been active in that same sex marriage thread. Specifically you've been against it and have called GLBT people immoral and deviants. Are you really in a position to take offense to this notion?

[Goodpasture]

Its obvious the pilgrim has no concept of ndn ways of thinking or of tribal attitudes. And rather than think it through and try to learn he/she insists on applying 50 year old california mores and reactions on an 11,000 year old culture. Now you see why we think in terms of such people as "not us."

[WesternPilgrim]

Look, folks, why all the chips on your shoulders? I didn't start this thread to debate religion. I wanted to know whether the atypical City-Data numbers are due to data collection problems, or if Cherokee County really is uniquely irreligious.

The question remains unanswered. How many Cherokees are not Christian? The answer to this question may provide a clue. If non-Christian Cherokees practice an identifiable religion (what is it called, by the way?), it may have been captured in City-Data's unusually large "other" category for this county. Or it may not have been captured at all. I would think that Oklahomans familiar with Cherokee County would have some insight into the matter.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

Its obvious the pilgrim has no concept of ndn ways of thinking or of tribal attitudes. And rather than think it through and try to learn he/she insists on applying 50 year old california mores and reactions on an 11,000 year old culture. Now you see why we think in terms of such people as "not us."

Be careful. I could be the next Cherokee Nation Chief!

"Tribal Councilor Bill John Baker is listed in the Cherokee Nation Registration as having one-thirty-second degree of Cherokee blood. Former Principal Chief John Ross was listed at one-eighth Cherokee, while Principal Chief W.W. Keeler was also one-thirty-second. Former Principal Chief Ross Swimmer is listed as one-quarter, while Wilma Mankiller was half Cherokee. Current Principal Chief Chad Smith is listed at half Cherokee, too. The Cherokee Nation does not have a blood quantum for citizenship or for holding office. Citizens only need to have a Cherokee blood ancestor listed on the Final Dawes Rolls."