[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by johnspecial

I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I have studied this question for many years. When looking at settlement patterns, history, dialect, religion, politics and culture, there isn't any other region to put Oklahoma but the South. I think those who think we are southwestern are those that A) live east of the Mississippi and B) have never set foot in AZ, NM or Nevada. Oklahoma is nothing like those places.

There really is no difference between southeastern Oklahoma and rural Mississippi. The rest of Oklahoma is a mixture of north Texas and Arkansas -with the exception of the panhandle(where no one lives)

Most of the towns, lakes and landmarks in many portions of Oklahoma are named after towns landmarks and lakes in Mississippi. Most of the Okie dialect is a variation of the Appalachian Southern. Which makes sense considering humans in north America have traditionally migrated from east to west. Southeastern Oklahomans speak with a coastal southern dialect.

The true west starts at the 100th meridian in the Texas Panhandle. We are a southern state. For anyone who knows what they are talking about, there is no argument.

As usual the situation is more nuanced than you are describing. SE Oklahoma is definitely "southern" but nothing like Mississipi based on demographics alone. North Texas and western Arkansas yes, but Mississippi.......No.

Far reaches of Western Oklahoma has more of the ranching and cattle culture which is southwestern in nature.

Northwestern Oklahoma is similar to Kansas in many ways and historically was settled by Kansans and other northern plains types in the Cherokee strip run.

While the whole state has some southern influence as you deftly described, the state and it's people change subtly as you go across the state, particulary from southeast to northwest.

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by eddie gein

As usual the situation is more nuanced than you are describing. SE Oklahoma is definitely "southern" but nothing like Mississipi based on demographics alone. North Texas and western Arkansas yes, but Mississippi.......No.

Far reaches of Western Oklahoma has more of the ranching and cattle culture which is southwestern in nature.

Northwestern Oklahoma is similar to Kansas in many ways and historically was settled by Kansans and other northern plains types in the Cherokee strip run.

While the whole state has some southern influence as you deftly described, the state and it's people change subtly as you go across the state, particulary from southeast to northwest.

Well said. I think what is in bold is probably the heart of the matter. When Oklahoma is viewed, in its totality, it has Southern influence throughout. Does some of it peter out a bit as you move West/North, well sure. But, by in large, the state is predominantly Southern, at least culturally. In other words, it is more Southern than anything else culturally.

I think Oklahoma's (and to some extent Texas' and western Arkansas) dilemma for those outside of the state is that AZ/NM have come to be known as the Southwest, when historically the Old Southwest was Oklahoma/Texas/Arkansas/and even portions of Louisiana. I really think NM/AZ are the southern West. Oklahoma and Texas are the "true" SOUTHwest. We probably need to utilize microregions more in this discussion such as "Western South" or "South-Central" for Oklahoma, Texas, and Arkansas. Having to choose from 4 main megaregions muddies up the water pertaining to this dialogue.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

Well said. I think what is in bold is probably the heart of the matter. When Oklahoma is viewed, in its totality, it has Southern influence throughout. Does some of it peter out a bit as you move West/North, well sure. But, by in large, the state is predominantly Southern, at least culturally. In other words, it is more Southern than anything else culturally.

I think Oklahoma's (and to some extent Texas' and western Arkansas) dilemma for those outside of the state is that AZ/NM have come to be known as the Southwest, when historically the Old Southwest was Oklahoma/Texas/Arkansas/and even portions of Louisiana. I really think NM/AZ are the southern West. Oklahoma and Texas are the "true" SOUTHwest. We probably need to utilize microregions more in this discussion such as "Western South" or "South-Central" for Oklahoma, Texas, and Arkansas. Having to choose from 4 main megaregions muddies up the water pertaining to this dialogue.

I would agree with you other than in NW Oklahoma which I believe is substantially less "southern" than the other quadrants of the state. That part of the state has always been historically Republican for instance while the rest of the state was traditionally democratic. I picked the 1964 results because a southern Texan was running as the democrat. Even in the Romney/Obama election the most dense support of Romney was in this exact same area.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/s...s=40&year=1964

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ok...sults_2012.svg

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by eddie gein

I would agree with you other than in NW Oklahoma which I believe is substantially less "southern" than the other quadrants of the state. That part of the state has always been historically Republican for instance while the rest of the state was traditionally democratic. I picked the 1964 results because a southern Texan was running as the democrat

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/s...s=40&year=1964

True with maybe the exception of dialect.

I have an acquaintance from Beaver, OK and he has a thicker twang than I do. You wanna talk about a bonafied ranching culture....that's it. Other friends of mine are from Guymon and they too have some speech very close to the classic Okie dialect.

I will agree that the overall "feel" of the area is different than much of the rest of Oklahoma. By in large, the far NW portion of the state is somewhat distinct in overall feel in comparison to the other quadrants. Good insights.

[eddie gein]

Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008

True with maybe the exception of dialect.

I have an acquaintance from Beaver, OK and he has a thicker twang than I do. You wanna talk about a bonafied ranching culture....that's it. Other friends of mine are from Guymon and they too have some speech very close to the classic Okie dialect.

I will agree that the overall "feel" of the area is different than much of the rest of Oklahoma. By in large, the far NW portion of the state is somewhat distinct in overall feel in comparison to the other quadrants. Good insights.

The Panhandle IMO is a bit different than points further east. I attribute it to two things. It's settlement was different than was the Cherokee strip. Secondly there are more former Texans in the panhandle than there are in say Woods. Co Oklahoma which was settled by people from points north.

I also want to maintain, that the area that I think that is distinct in this aspect is the Cherokee strip counties. I am in Clinton, OK right now and Clinton has some definite southernness to it. Much more so than Alva or Buffalo or say Fairview which seem much more Kansan to me.

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by eddie gein

The Panhandle IMO is a bit different than points further east. I attribute it to two things. It's settlement was different than was the Cherokee strip. Secondly there are more former Texans in the panhandle than there are in say Woods. Co Oklahoma which was settled by people from points north.

I also want to maintain, that the area that I think that is distinct in this aspect is the Cherokee strip counties. I am in Clinton, OK right now and Clinton has some definite southernness to it. Much more so than Alva or Buffalo or say Fairview which seem much more Kansan to me.

Good points on the settlement patterns, and, on the bold, absolutely.

[linicx]

Oklahoma is a contradiction in terms. If you ask 1000 people across the state you will get 900 different opinions. Officially Oklahoma is the NATIVE state. Unofficially it is the buckle of the Blble Belt. It's horse and pumpjack, mountain and prairie, wet and dry, lush greenery and red earth, reservation and city, native church and cowboy church, larger than life and small as a gnat. It's cliffs and rolling hills and miles of busy concrete ribbons. It is large universities and small community colleges. It is ancient histor and modern history for each day is a snapshot in time. It is what is is where you live. Your reality is not necessarily mine even though we both live in the same state, and may agree on the same issues.

I grew up in a lush green river city, that has much in common with Tulsa, It was ringed by, high hills and cliffs that has much in common with NE Oklahoma and the Ozark Mountain Range. Thus I moved to a peninsula called Grove that is historically a retirement destination and felt right at home. Grove is a little bit city, a little bit country, a little bit Midwest and a little bit South. It was not quite the same as home but it was and is a comfortable mix of people, ideas, culture, and beliefs. I stayed for many years.

Oklahoma is many things to many people, and in my opinion OK is okay!

[artsy11]

Southwest with southern influences. Nuff said.

[Bass&Catfish2008]

Originally Posted by artsy11

Southwest with southern influences. Nuff said.

^^^
I think that's a pretty good way (and most importantly, accurate) of saying it too.

Also, it's good to see someone from Tulsa set the record straight as your view meshes much better with my experience with my family/friends from the Tulsa area.

[eddie gein]

The irony to me about the "southwestern" aspect of Oklahoma is that while I see it and feel it in the southwestern quadrant of the state, I flat don't see it or feel it in the other three quadrants of the state. Currently I spend about all my time driving all over southwest Oklahoma west Texas. Even southwestern Oklahoma is different than the high plains and the desert parts of Texas but they seem to fit together.