GATE still alive and well in OC public schools? (Garden Grove: neighborhood, to buy)

[Charles]

Originally Posted by mrwumpus

Not sure that Great Schools is comparing apples to apples. Both districts appear to feature different test standards. I have, however, heard recently from an Orange County, California teacher who came from Virginia that VA schools were far better overall especially for gifted children.

And one comment from one teacher is used to challenge GreatSchools normalizing techniques?

[CAVA1990]

I'm highly sceptical of assertions that differences in public schools are the result of anything beyond differences in demographics. Think about it, are these supposedly great schools hiring out of a different pool of prospective teachers, (to the contrary my experience in CUSD was there were a lot of lazy old timers hanging around because they liked living near the beach and they had tenure protection, has that changed?), using different text books (those are standard statewide I believe), or employing some kind of superior curriculum (again standard)? These "GreatSchools" fans never really say what it is that supposedly makes these schools great. It's also amazing how they're always in high income areas. Back when incomes were pretty average in CUSD (yes that used to be the case), the schools were pretty average. So what's changed?

[bhcompy]

GATE is still active in the Los Al district, but as a former accelerated student I think that it's a waste of time and mostly just so parents can feel smug while their kids get endless nights of homework. Being ahead a grade and having double the homework at the same time isn't fair to the kids. I'd rather put my child in a private tutor for things that I feel need work and keep him out of honors classes

[bhcompy]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

I'm highly sceptical of assertions that differences in public schools are the result of anything beyond differences in demographics. Think about it, are these supposedly great schools hiring out of a different pool of prospective teachers, (to the contrary my experience in CUSD was there were a lot of lazy old timers hanging around because they liked living near the beach and they had tenure protection, has that changed?), using different text books (those are standard statewide I believe), or employing some kind of superior curriculum (again standard)? These "GreatSchools" fans never really say what it is that supposedly makes these schools great. It's also amazing how they're always in high income areas. Back when incomes were pretty average in CUSD (yes that used to be the case), the schools were pretty average. So what's changed?

What changes is generally the availability of volunteers(there are dozens of daily volunteers at my sons elementary) to alleviate teacher/student ratio problems like 36 kids per class in 4th grade and 45 kids per class for the average level math student(with smaller classes for the remedial students and advanced students), and educated parents seemingly take a greater interest in the education of their children. Education level and income level generally go hand in hand. I'm not saying that average schools are bad or that you can't succeed, but kids that aren't driven or don't have the parents to push them have a much harder time succeeding at the same level.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

I'm highly sceptical of assertions that differences in public schools are the result of anything beyond differences in demographics.

Back when incomes were pretty average in CUSD (yes that used to be the case), the schools were pretty average. So what's changed?

Smart immersed people have smart kids and smart people usually earn more money and can live in nicer neighborhoods. So, yep, it is pretty much like you wrote.

In Irvine for example there are a lot of Asians. Probably the smart Asians made it to the US from their home country. The below average IQ Asian didn't make it to the US; he's picking rice somewhere back there. On the flip side, the mostly uneducated non-professional agrarian working class from countries south of the US make it here. The educated ones are living in on some hacienda somewhere.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Charles

Smart immersed people have smart kids and smart people usually earn more money and can live in nicer neighborhoods. So, yep, it is pretty much like you wrote. .

So what that means is comparing schools is basically worthless except for finding higher concentrations of kids you'd like yours to hang out with. It has relatively little value in determining how your child will do individually.

[dfarmer002]

Charles hit the nail on the head.

Look at any of the stats relative to "school ratings" whether its the actual state or a website and what you will find is what charles said. The higher the economic propserity in an area, the better the school is rated usually. Look at the percenjtage of "free lunch: programs in a school and that can almost tell you where its test scores are. Is it that those more under priviledged parents dont, cant, or wont spend the time volunteering? helping their own kids? are more apathetic re: education? Dont come from a background that empahasizes it, thus dont push where pushing needs to be? Who knows. There is a reason lthat a district like Irvine USD is so highly rated and the city of irvine has some of the highest family median incomes. And I dont think it has much to do from there being "more money available" to the school as much as the mindset of thhose in that area involved with the school.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by dfarmer002

Charles hit the nail on the head.

Look at any of the stats relative to "school ratings" whether its the actual state or a website and what you will find is what charles said. The higher the economic propserity in an area, the better the school is rated usually. Look at the percenjtage of "free lunch: programs in a school and that can almost tell you where its test scores are. Is it that those more under priviledged parents dont, cant, or wont spend the time volunteering? helping their own kids? are more apathetic re: education? Dont come from a background that empahasizes it, thus dont push where pushing needs to be? Who knows. There is a reason lthat a district like Irvine USD is so highly rated and the city of irvine has some of the highest family median incomes. And I dont think it has much to do from there being "more money available" to the school as much as the mindset of thhose in that area involved with the school.

I have an even more radical idea. It has nothing to do at all with the schools. It's the result of a child's homelife as in what kind of books, magazines, and newspapers are read by the parents and kids (hardcopy or on-line), what's discussed at the dinner table, what the family does on vacation and in their free time, and whether kids are required to do their chores and homework. I hate to laud the home schoolers as I don't believe in it but the the real reason their kids do relatively well is because of these "non-school" factors. It's not the amount of actual volunteering activities in a school that makes one better than another, it's merely the fact that a greater percentage of that type of parent is sending kids to that school.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

So what that means is comparing schools is basically worthless except for finding higher concentrations of kids you'd like yours to hang out with. It has relatively little value in determining how your child will do individually.

All other things being equal (your kid's IQ, your kid's teachers) I would think hanging out with higher academically performing kids who have proactive parents is a better environment than hanging out with kids who spray grafitti and are destined to drop out of high school.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Charles

All other things being equal (your kid's IQ, your kid's teachers) I would think hanging out with higher academically performing kids who have proactive parents is a better environment than hanging out with kids who spray grafitti and are destined to drop out of high school.

Perhaps for staying out of jail but I doubt will have much impact on a kid's academic performance. Think about yourself. Didn't you have friends who were total slackers, trouble makers, or came from sketchy homes? I did. Did they have any influence on my own performance? Not really.

What matters most is your own family. Not your friends'.