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Old 01-26-2015, 04:09 PM
 
10,198 posts, read 6,274,942 times
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[quote=bigdumbgod;38183848]
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post

Also includes the home-school crowd. They wanna play the isolationist game, so be it. Just don't come down off the mountain and contaminate the rest of us!
Ah, but you still cannot prevent them, or any other unvaccinated childless adult, from going out into society.

Houston, we have a problem.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,035,115 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
If any of these infants die or have life-long complications, we'll know who to thank for that. Not that the Jenny McCarthy-listening types of well-to-do parents will care.
The parents don't bare any responsibility? Taking young infants to a place like Disneyland, especially during flu season, is not a good idea. The infants this young get nothing out of being there and are just exposed to all sorts of pathogens at a time when they are most susceptible to adverse outcomes from common diseases.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:01 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,670 posts, read 16,206,395 times
Reputation: 19760
Default If you lack the context to evaluate arguments about vaccination, the internet is much more likely to make you dumber

Again, how about that Jenny McCarthy eh?

But, better yet, how about that internet? Just ran across this:
Quote:
It's equally unsurprisingly that he [Bill Gates] disagrees about the internet making dumb people dumber. It's a pretty anti-tech opinion, after all, and that's not the business Bill Gates is in. But I think his answer actually belies his disagreement, since he immediately acknowledges an example of precisely this phenomenon: the anti-vax movement, something that happens to be close to his heart. Unfortunately, to call this merely a "communications challenge" discounts the problem. Sure, it's a communications challenge, but that's the whole point. The internet is all about communication, and it does two things in this case. First, it empowers the anti-vax nutballs, giving them a far more powerful medium for spreading their nonsense. On the flip side, it makes a lot more people vulnerable to bad information.

If you lack the context to evaluate arguments about vaccination, the internet is much more likely to make you dumber about vaccinating your kids than any previous medium in history.

...

... I'm not trying to make a broad claim that the internet is making us generally stupider or anything like that. But it's a far more powerful medium for spreading conspiracy theories and other assorted crap than anything we've had before. If you lack the background and context to evaluate information about a particular subject, you're highly likely to be misinformed if you do a simple Google search and just start reading whatever comes up first. And that describes an awful lot of people.

Obviously this has been a problem for as long humans have been able to communicate. The anti-fluoridation nutballs did just fine with only dead-tree technology. Still, I think the internet makes this a more widespread problem, simply because it's a more widespread medium, and it's one that's especially difficult to navigate wisely. Hopefully that will change in the future, but for now it is what it is. It doesn't have to make dumb people dumber, but in practice, I think it very often does.
Does the Internet Really Make Dumb People Dumber? | Mother Jones
Jenny McCarthy can't touch 'dis.
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Old 01-27-2015, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,030 posts, read 41,087,048 times
Reputation: 44970
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveNotCommute View Post
I don't know if this was really your intent but your phrasing throughout many posts suggests antagonism against the class of people you labeled as "educated people."

What exactly are these people educated in? In terms of STEM related topics I would have low expectations from a Business major or Political Science major even if they were hot shots with 6 figure salaries. Personally I find that most engineers of all stripes tend to have reasonably good logic but are as susceptible as anybody of making that universal error of building good logic on top of a bad premise or two.

Otherwise I do agree that it is deplorable that anybody could ever be in any way susceptible to celebrity influence. However my opinion, like that of several other posters, is that you have badly over-emphasized the role of celebrity influence.

What most likely made the difference here is going to be the supporting infrastructure of pseudo-science community-driven "wisdom" (and in some cases outright fabricated data) that managed to sway otherwise trusting and rational people. But where did it come from? This data, and the community that created and sustained it, clearly had to exist before celebrities hopped on the bandwagon.

The root cause of the anti-vaccination phenomenon is not going to be found among either celebrities or urban "educated" people of all stripes who were fooled into believing the bad information. It will be found in the communities and movements that predate Jenny McCarthy and provided her with fraudulent information.
If you go back to my initial post in this inane exchange about education, celebrities, and vaccines you will find I never said or implied that no educated persons vaccinate. I gave references that show that those who intentionally do not vaccinate their children cluster in areas of higher socioeconomic backgrounds. Unvaccinated children from poorer, less educated families are more often that way because of lack of access, not parental refusal.

There has been anti-vax sentiment going back to the introduction of the smallpox vaccine. However, I have been specifically referring to the recent decline in vaccination rates, one of the results of which is the resurgence of measles.

The "root cause" may not be celebrities, but celebrities have certainly given the anti-vax position a very public face. They have had an impact on the decision made by some people - including some you would think might be more discerning by virtue of education - not to vaccinate. Without the efforts of the anti-vax celebrities, there would have been much less publicity for the idea that vaccines cause autism. Sorry, but Jenny and her cohorts share some of the blame for spreading vaccine information.
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Old 01-27-2015, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,030 posts, read 41,087,048 times
Reputation: 44970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Ok. I'll parse again. Because you just did it, again. You've now made a claim that educated people aren't vaccinating. Which is, of course, not even slightly true. Truth is: a vast majority of educated people do vaccinate.

Now, if you'd said something like, "those persons not vaccinating are most often from educated backgrounds" and then cited your reference, I wouldn't have to parse.
I never said all educated people do not vaccinate. However, large numbers of unvaccinated kids come from educated families.

References are in my previous posts, which you apparently did not bother to read.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Studio City, CA 91604
3,049 posts, read 4,528,851 times
Reputation: 5961
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Outbreak of 51 measles cases linked to Disneyland - CNN.com

Ok, I don't know where these people all came from - some maybe international. But I'm guessing a fair amount come from California and other US states. And I'm gonna guess that if you have the money to travel to Disneyworld and get gouged, you have the financial resources and mental capacity to vaccinate your kids.

This is what happens when idiot liberal parents take the word of some fad-spewing ex stripper over decades and millions of data points from multiple credible sources in the scientific and medical community. Measles can and does kill, disfigure, and permanently impair some portion of kids who get it. I wonder how those idiot parents involved feel now that their kid has it, AND that their kid has been a vector for others to get it. God help them if they have to live with the fact that they allowed their kid to be permanently impaired over something that would have been completely preventable.

People, vaccinate your kids. There is a reason why debilitating diseases like polio do not plague our society like they used to, and that reason has to do with enough sane parents vaccinating their kids. Choose not to and we'll be back in the jungle soon. We now have whooping cough traveling around my neck of the woods like some third-world country thanks to these Mercedes-driving, yoga mat-carrying nitwits.

It is fascinating to me how otherwise wealthy and successful people who have benefited at least indirectly from vaccination can decide to just forego it with their own flesh and blood when some celebrity says some nonsense.
Sometimes I think the goal of liberals is to turn us into a 3rd World Country.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:51 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,670 posts, read 16,206,395 times
Reputation: 19760
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I never said all educated people do not vaccinate. However, large numbers of unvaccinated kids come from educated families.

References are in my previous posts, which you apparently did not bother to read.
Sorry suzyq, but that IS exactly what you said. I was pretty sure you didn't mean it that way. But, yeah, that's the way you said it. Like with your false syllogisms, when making a case you have to use language in ways that can't be misinterpreted.

Now, back to your obsession with Jenny McCarthy and celebrities. As I have pointed out several times: charlatans, false prophets, and celebrity spokespersons have always been a part of life's campaigns. The root issues to be confronted and dealt with are found in various aspects of human nature that make people susceptible to such salesmanship. And if you want a serious contemporary villain, look at the impersonal internet.

Read your links? Yeah, I read most of them - until they damn near put me to sleep with irrelevant / insignificant blather.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:54 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,670 posts, read 16,206,395 times
Reputation: 19760
Quote:
Originally Posted by kttam186290 View Post
Sometimes I think the goal of liberals is to turn us into a 3rd World Country.
How so?
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:15 PM
 
3,679 posts, read 2,509,636 times
Reputation: 6679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
How so? (Re- liberals turning America into a Third World country)
Here's my subjective answer..
So called 'Liberalism', which is really cultural-Marxism, is a philosophy of self-destruction injected into the West. Cultural Marxists routinely work to sabotage & dilute the foundations of American/Western civilization.
Those foundations being our borders (Liberals sabotage and disproportionately undermine the defense of our Mexican border, and then pass legislation to aid and abet illegal immigrants once they're here.)
Our English language (Liberals are encouraging & supporting linguistic balkanization/ Spanish & English rift primarily.) Which is designed to undermine assimilation into Anglo-American tradition.
And a continuous assault, and ridicule, of middle-class cultural tradition. Liberal policy and philosophy is leading to childless yuppies & hipsters, & a huge undertow of impoverished Third World class. The idea of 2 parent, 2 car garage family is demonized and peddled by Liberals as 'fly-over country' simple-mindedness.

If u don't believe we're being reduced to Third World status, visit spots in LA., where unchecked illegal immigration has transformed the areas.. Schools where kids can barely speak English. Schools in the Valley that are routinely closed by Latino gang fights.. and look at the disappearing, once stabilizing middle class. But I will concede Conservatives have been ineffective in fighting it.. peace.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:22 PM
 
Location: OC/LA
3,830 posts, read 4,650,674 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth View Post
Here's my subjective answer..
So called 'Liberalism', which is really cultural-Marxism, is a philosophy of self-destruction injected into the West. Cultural Marxists routinely work to sabotage & dilute the foundations of American/Western civilization.
Those foundations being our borders (Liberals sabotage and disproportionately undermine the defense of our Mexican border, and then pass legislation to aid and abet illegal immigrants once they're here.)
Our English language (Liberals are encouraging & supporting linguistic balkanization/ Spanish & English rift primarily.) Which is designed to undermine assimilation into Anglo-American tradition.
And a continuous assault, and ridicule, of middle-class cultural tradition. Liberal policy and philosophy is leading to childless yuppies & hipsters, & a huge undertow of impoverished Third World class. The idea of 2 parent, 2 car garage family is demonized and peddled by Liberals as 'fly-over country' simple-mindedness.

If u don't believe we're being reduced to Third World status, visit spots in LA., where unchecked illegal immigration has transformed the areas.. Schools where kids can barely speak English. Schools in the Valley that are routinely closed by Latino gang fights.. and look at the disappearing, once stabilizing middle class. But I will concede Conservatives have been ineffective in fighting it.. peace.
So how 'bout them conservatives that want to teach creationism in public schools? That's some real smart book learnin' there.
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