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Nonetheless, given your perceptual phenomena, which for you are quite real I would recommend that you stay in Europe. Your current disposition mitigates making the States a viable residence. Shalom.
I dont fully know where you have the idea that I want to live in the U.S. or that I am trying to? I have no interest in it whatsoever. I've lived in many countries including many cities here (San Francisco, Newport, Laguna, Miami, Chicago, New York). I only come here for business travels.
I've been offered tripple salaries if I move back here. I would never do it for any money in the world. In Europe there is passion for life itself, to travel, to see, to experience, to learn, to taste, to love, to know, to feel something. To me this is more valuable in life and more the real expression of life.
Wow...you are one very negative soul, Antibes. Unless you have lived all over the USA please don't generalize. I agree with you regarding OC...born and raised there, happy to escape many years ago...hate it now. But 99% of Americans are genuine people...many good folks here who are not shallow and not into "things". They generally do not live in the big cities and towns...they are "real" and they are "honest"...but for the most part they do not reside in So California. Just how it is.
I have travelled all over Europe, the British Isles, Australia...much more, and been in every one of our 50 states, and my experience is that if a person is open, honest and friendly that person will recieve those same responses from the people they meet. I currently live in AZ...been here 23 years now, but in a smaller town, not Phoenix.
You are entitled to your opinion and it seems to me you've had some very bad experiences with Americans in general...but please don't lump the entire country into your tiny sphere of narrow-minded knowledge.
You really demonstrate a perfect example of the 'typical' american mentality where any fact or any truth cannot be assimilated in a healthy way but is always brushed off as being "negative". I find this type of thinking so small and typical in american society. I believe the cause stems from a plastic society, which creates a people disconnected from reality, disconnected from their feelings, and becoming somewhat soulless. People don't know how to be themselves anymore, so they are miserable, look for pills to solve their problems, jump to marry within days of knowing each other (how crazy is that?) and divorce two years later, exist only for making money, shop to forget, live and breath for materialism only, and so on to escape the reality of their own emptiness.
But this is not negativity, this is really the truth. Its neither negative or because I have "bad" experiences. I'm just saying truthfully what impression this country and the people have on foreigners. And any foreigner will understand what I mean. If you find these facts and impressions negative, what does that tell you? Means you don't now how you appear and what impression you give out to the rest of the world.
There is nothing more annoying than to hear the constant nonsense how this country is "the best in the world" and how "everyone" want to come and live here. Back home I can't even find people who want to come and visit! You have no clue how LITTLE people are interested in the U.S. in other countries. Barack Obama said this country should strive to "change the world". The man must be insane! Why doesn't he change himself instead? His objectives are absurd. For some reason americans walk around in a constant haze hypnotizing themselves to believe that the whole world wants to be here, wants to be american, and want nothing in life but long to live here. It really is very, very far from the truth, and as a European I really laugh when I hear this.
I recently spoke to a man who has attraction for eastern european women (Eastern Europe to us, really is not 'real' Europe). He is trying to find one from these regions and complained he could not make even one of them stay here. And he lives in Laguna! They all finally left, getting bored with the plastic and longing back to family and friends. I was surprised at this since I would at least assume Eastern Europeans would be more keen to come here, considering their situation. I know 99.9% of actual Europeans are not that interested to come here, but from poorer regions people are always open to finding ways to improve their lives.
You just have no clue that what you value here and find so irresistable is to us sterile and soulless. Even the conversations between people are pointless, unintelligent, unchallenging and uninteresting. Those who strive to come here are mainly from poor countries (asia, mexico, south america, russia, etc) and think they will find quick wealth here. They don't always realize that its not that easy here. In Europe our teenagers love to travel, live abroad for 2- 3 years and then return home. That's just normal because in our part of the world we are curious about other countries and cultures. It doesn't mean we want to be here, or that you are greater than anyone else in the world. When an american visits (ex) Rome, he fails to see 3000 years of history standing right in front of him but instead whines that he can't get McDonald's instead of pasta, or why he has to walk instead of taking the car from door to door, or why no one is rushing to smile or be impressed by him. To us, this lack of ability to feel awe and wonder, to think and ponder, and to be responsive is an unhealthy mentality and not balanced.
I've just been two months in SoCal, living right on the sandy beach, the most beautiful part of it. Its gorgeous, I admit. But beauty has so many different ways of expression. The first month I was dying to go back to Europe but had to stay another month due to business. People are flaky here which gets annoying. Now I'm getting used to it, so its OK, but I'm still thrilled to leave. Don't misunderstand: I love the US and I love my friends here, but I don't want to live here. What I will miss from here is the wide roads (easy to drive), cheap shopping (rates are excellent now with the strong Euro), the huge selection of electronics, and the huge malls that have everything available in one place while in Europe most places are sort of mom-and-pop stores and you have to know where to look to find what you need.
I will also miss my occasional jumbo breakfast servings wherever I go although no one really needs to eat that much... in Europe you have to accept a skimpy cup of coffee and a small piece of bread as a standard breakfast!
Do I miss anything else? Nope.
And interestingly enough, what was the highlight of the summer for my friends here? When an Italian friend of theirs came from South Italy for a short visit, gathered everyone together and cooked for all of us... Everyone we know wanted to come and join and the house was full for the first time in ages. Wine and food flowed, human interaction and the feeling of togetherness (something rare here), laughter, joy, things that are LIFE and make it special was suddenly the reality.
And this is what we love with Europe. Why would we want what you have?
Changing to a whole new country is a big step, a big change to make.
Would I live just anywhere in the U.S.? Unlike the common assumption with the americans that every person in the world would die to live anywhere in their country, I can say: absolutely not. In my opinion the only place good to live in if I would replace Europe with the U.S. would be some parts of California. I would slit my wrists if I would end up living in some of the places in the U.S...
Here's the facts on american society that I think European would find valuable to know [warning; its a bit brutal and to the point. Dont read if you get easily offended]:
1. Costs: It will be much cheaper for you in general, as far as housing costs, shopping, food, etc. The economy is pretty bad now, meaning things are getting even cheaper. If you'd be able to maintain your UK salary in the U.S. you should be fairly OK to live comfortably.
California is very keen to be 'international' and 'cultural' meaning, they have imported goods from all over the world and you will always find something you are looking for, somewhere.
2. Socializing: It will be very easy for you to make connection with people, but very difficult to make real, genuine friends. In the end, you mean nothing to them. Harsh but true. So, if you move, try to find other Europeans to be with so you don't end up being emotionally lonely and isolated.
They will casually say things like "lets get together" and so on, but its simply a phrase to be polite and often, it has no real meaning. So don't take all statements too serious. Break the ice by inviting them over for barbecues or pot-lucks on Sundays. They often enjoy that, and americans don't really have very close connection with their family members/parents/relatives the way we do in Europe, so they tend to have time available on weekends.
3. Friendship: Americans are extremely shallow. They are wonderfully polite and open to converse with, casually. But....there is no culture to speak of, and they are culturally handicapped and insensitive to other cultures and countries.
As a European it can become exceedingly boring to only hear shallowness from morning to evening (the TV gets unbearable if you're used to UK TV which is far more diverse), or backstabbing (a favorite subject in the american workplace) but the subject level of discussions are often very superficial and intellectually poor. After moving back to Europe I noticed how careful people are to speak bad about each other; I seldom hear a truly bad word spoken about anyone else in Europe, especially if they exist in your circle of people. Not so in the U.S. They have so many emotional hang-ups (emotionally imature) you sometimes wonder how it feels living in the head and body of someone so split and filled with conflicts. Its really quite exhausting. As a teen when I arrived, the first thing that shocked me stunned was how they would share intimiate details about their sex life, hemorroids, the 'bad' about their partner, and what not, on first contact which a European would only discuss with a closest friend or relative. If at all. They love to badmouth their partner to other people while they seldom share their inner feelings with their partners, which is an odd quality for Europeans to get used to.
I mean, look at them; they have to get on the Dr Phil show to discuss things they have never told each other even living together for years, for the whole world to hear! Its really quite funny.
You will seldom find friends to the same emotional level as in Europe; its all about how you look, what you drive and your status and not what you are as a human being. In 20 years I never saw a drop dead goregous man with a plain or ugly woman in CA, but I've seen this many times in Europe. It shows how shallow they are. This is the biggest downside with living in the U.S. and why most Europeans return back to Europe after 2-4 years. European eventually feel emotionally lonely and isolated and miss to feel connected to another human being. I returned to Europe and while I miss many things with California, I also don't want to live there anymore. I visit 3 months of the year. I made more friends in Europe in two years than 20 years in California... And I love the different cultures in Europe, our traditions and quirks although I could honesty live perfectly well without the bureaucracy.
4. Culture: They have tunnel vision and imagine they are 'the best' of everything in the world. They really have no clue that 85% of all material aspects they love so much and have around them and adapted to their own country, are either imported from abroad, imitated or adopted from different regions of Europe.... They think its all american. But its all been brought together from elsewhere into one melting pot, especially in California, which makes it a great place to live for Europeans. Everything from food, to clothes, to cars, and designs of houses - all are imitation originating from somewhere else. For example, California cities like Laguna Beach, Newport, etc. was designed to imitate the French and Italian Riviera; the boating docs around the whole coastline, the outdoor cafes, the Tuscan homes (with the sand and brick red colors), etc. About ten years ago you could not find many outdoor cafes in California. We've had them in Europe before there even was anyone living in California! (lol!). Since americans have an odd attraction to Italy of all places, a lot of the colors and building designs in California can be recognized having a Tuscan flair.
The only truly american things you notice right away are all the "lazy electronics" as I call them; electric tooth brushes, electric blankets, electric nose hair cutters, drive through fast food, and so on and on. Anything where human effort is avoided and there must be an "instant" pill to solve all problems is typically american and a creation of their culture.
5. Relationships: If you are single, flat chested, above 25 and not a model, and not a porn star, forget about dating a California male, even if he is potbellied (but few are; they try to keep in shape), old, balding and not at all on par with what he wants. American men are often handsome, but boring and empty partners to share life with. I found them fascinating when I first arrived, but it quickly died out. All European women I speak with who ended up marrying an american male, have regretted themselves. They complain that the men are culturally 'dead' (no depth of feeling) which has made it boring for them to experience the world with them, to travel, and to expand life and emotions. And the men lack emotional passion the way we Europeans have when we lose our head completely to love.
When americans date they will generally hop in bed and have sex after a single date within a few hours (its true! sober and all!). There is seldom any romantizised and old fashioned ideals such as 'learning to know each other'. They "learn to know" by sleeping on the first date. As a European I found this uncomfortable. In spite of our societies being more sexually open we don't generally sleep with a stranger on the dot unless we're dead drunk and embarrass ourselves or something.
When they date, they don't look at the person as a whole, as an individual with a soul. They will have a long list of "demands" of everything that person must do for them rather than what they can do for each other. Most of those demands are materially directed. The U.S. is the only western nation where "finances" (money) is the first and main reason for divorce. Its not because they are so poor in relationships, but because the material aspect is more valued than the human aspect.
Another odd thing I found when moving to CA was that men have zero respect for women, and you begin to notice that they are looking to exploit. Unlike in Europe, you can't be friends with an american male because they are not interested to know women as a person, and don't connect. And if they don't get to bed you, they simply lose interest in dealing with you at all. This to me was a huge loss, as my long list of male friends in Europe was important to me and emotionally fulfilling; they filled a brotherly role which never happened with american men. It really is a total male-cheuvanistic society and not at all gender equal like Europe. American women are much, much more aggressive and abraisive and masculine compared to European women, and this may be why. They are very, very demanding and less accepting but I think this is more a trait of Californians.
6. California: the weather is awesome, it is beautiful and roads and housing are very spacious and comfortable compared to Europe. Forget about the drab European weather!!! Here the weather is paradise, its perfect!
Don't forget: no topless on beaches... its considered a bit crude to the americans.
7. Schools: I love the educational opportunities here, because its not so strict as in Europe. I think your children will love it and will easily adapt. And I think the other kids will find the accents charming; many americans really get swooned by the english accent! Its quite funny!
I don't find the education as good as the European one on one level, while on another level I find it better and much more diverse, more selections with a chance to develop into something you want (where else can you get a valid college or university degree in ex. astrology?...!). General knowledge feels somewhat poor here when you converse with people, so obviously education is limited or perhaps focused in a different direction than in Europe.
This response may have been brutally honest, beause I know how much goes into uprooting and moving to a completely different country. Better to be honest and just let you think about it and know the facts from the start. It will take you about 2-3 years getting used to the american 'ways' and you will often find it offensive, exhausting, abbrasive and incredible until you adjust to this culture. Don't forget that even Posh and Becks, with all that money, still long to get away from California and spend more than half the time traveling back to the U.K...
In spite of these facts, I love the americans because I was young when I adapted into their culture so half of me have these qualities too.
The most wonderful and unique quality of americans, of which they are respected and admired for in the whole world, is their tremendous optimism! Its infectuous. To exaggerate statements with overwhelming optimism is unique for americans, while we Europeans tend to be broody and have long faces unless we know someone well. They rule the world with their attention to service, which is second to none of any country. Their incredible openness to new prospects and business, make them fun to deal with if you do business or keep in contact with clients, etc. For americans everything is possible which is the most charming part of their personality.
They love to be positive (even if on the inside they are not). They don't know how to handle real honesty because its very difficult for them to stay genuinely connected to their emotions, they are emotionally immature, and they prefer to stay in denial. So, as long as you stay shallow, and 'have a nice day' to everything - you will do marvelous and they will feel more comfortable with you.
And DO NOT get drunk here on weekends, or at all! They are never seen drunk in public while we Europeans make a fool of ourselves in so many places we visit.
I am an american who has lived in Holland for over ten years and I agree with every word .... EXCEPT I APPLY IT TO EUROPEANS.
They are cold, unwelcoming and hostile to a friendly smile.
After what will be almost 12 years.. I can't wait to get out of here.
After reading the above post... I began to think... this is nothing but "Culture". As much as it HURTS Europeans to admit it... America has a CULTURE. Of GOOD SERVICE! Getting the job done. And in most cases trying to get along with others.
Maybe I made no real friends in all this time because of culture and maybe that's why the poster above me has made none either.
It's hard to make friends with people you scorn.
I can't wait to get back the states.. to kind friendly people who aren't SNOBS. Who hold a door for you, let one another ahead in line if they only have 2 items and you have a cart load! COMMON CURTSY I have missed it ENORMOUSLY. And I don't recommend Americans move here! I have not enjoyed living in Europe.
I must disagree with a lot of what is being said about DIVERSITY. Don't generalize all of Orange County into one thing!
Different cities have different ethnicities. On my street in Buena Park alone, there are Caucasians, Hispanics, African Americans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, and Filipinos! Please stop lumping us all into the "Orange County only has white people and hispanics" group.
And I love Orange County and always have. Never have I ever wanted to move away. And my two favorite places on Earth besides the O.C. are Denver, Colorado and Eureka.
And America has a culture. It's meldings of other cultures.
Oh, dear god. Why are you using terms like USA and Europe? Europe is a continent while USA is a country. Europe consists of a variety of small nations whereas USA is a federation of different states. You know all these things yet you imply that ALL the nations of Europe are the same? or that they share the same values? Then you probably don't know "Europe" or you have lived in a single country in Europe and you think that everyone's like that.
e.g. British people are by no means similar to Italians or Greeks or Russians. Swedish people are nothing like Spanish people. They are all very different and not in the way Californians and New Yorkers are. They don't even speak the same language for crying out loud. They have absolutely nothing in common ("We" even have 3 different alphabets in Europe: Latin, Greek, Cyrillian). School systems, traditions, values, health systems, society structure... its all so different that I am in pain everytime that I hear the word Europeans. Take USA vs Britain if you wish.
Conclusion: Generalizations like "Europeans are polite and kind and Americans are shallow and snobby" are really really really NOT true. I have met very rude European people and I have met very nice Americans and vice versa. If you want generalizations, you can say that Southern Europeans (Spain, Lower France, Italy, Greece, etc) are usually more cheery/chilled-out than North Europeans (Scandinavian, Britain, parts of Russia).
Also, Orange County climate and much of the weather in California falls into the category of mediterrenean climate which is pretty much the same in many parts of Europe (without the scary oceans i might add) - After all, the climate is named after the mediterrenean sea in Europe...
I can not really understand the logic of "Europeans are good/bad". It is such a stupid notion that it sounds like racism or something. I have lived in France, Canada and Greece and I think that Greeks, French and Canadians all have similarities. I have friends from Africa and they are almost the same as my friends from France. So, cut the crap there's no bad or good American/European. Stupid stereotypes.
So if you really think that "Europeans" (I still can not get why all Europeans are the same or even similar) are kinder, more original people than Americans then its fine. But don't present it like it's a fact or something. Huge and odd generalization.
Btw I am "European" too. I am not so kind though. I talk trash behind people's back. SHOCKING?!, like in Britain when they drink Tea and eat scones they talk about the weather and not about the neighbour's son failing to gain admission to Oxford. I spent 3 months in a British home and the gossip was like air to these people. MANY PEOPLE (not all) are like that in many countries. It's human nature at it's best. Even scientists say that some people actually enjoy watching others suffer (not physical torture or anyhing). It's so ****ing true and that is why "Reality Dramas" sell. Why don't you make a reality about people being happy? Coz its boring, uninteresting. Why do tabloids sell so furiously? "Europeans" don't like gossip? Right... that is why the Sun (british tabloid) is the no.1 selling newspaper in the UK.
Anyways, don't generalize. It ain't cool and some people might get offended (although you really shouldn't coz opinions are like ass holes; everyone's got one).
I think that by the sound of the money, you'll be comfortable here in a nice area (South OC is best for families, schools, activities, safety, etc). Look in Mission Viejo, RSM, Lake Forest, Ladera Ranch.
On the whole cultural issue:
I've lived in the US, Mexico, and Germany and have visited Finland on numerous occasions as well as visiting 13 other countries. Each place has their beauty, and their bad points as well. Nothing compares to Mexico in terms of community, and generosity and natural beauty (yes, it's true. Crystal clear waters surround Cozumel island, and Cabo San Lucas is a wonderful mountainous desert peninsula with the Pacific to the West and the Sea of Cortez to the East). Germany is so GREEN and clean. I love the design of the city plazas, wonderful for socializing. Scandinavia in my opinion is home to a largely intellegent and hard-working population. I prefer their music and fashion to that of continental Europe. And the USA, my home country. When my great-grandparents moved here in the early 1900's it was in search of opportunity. And although we're having a tough economic time right now (due to mismanagement and the misguided policies of the last 8+ years), I believe we still have much to offer the hard-working and industrious person. We have diversity, which is refreshing. Within Southern CA, one can find many community centers: Latino, Philipino, Vietnamese, Persian, Jewish, Chinese, Korean, Russian, Armenian, Syrian, etc.... NYC is filled with people with international roots.
Yes, it's true, Europeans travel to other countries more. But it's not true that you TRAVEL more. The difference is that England is the roughly the size of Alabama or Louisiana. Ask an American how many have transversed our country from coast to coast and you've met one who's travelled the distance of Europe end to end AND BACK again! You could fit most of Europe in only 1/2 of the area of the United States. If you want a more direct comparison--the entire land mass of the United Kingdom could fit within the state of Michigan. Many Americans feel they simply haven't seen enough of their own country to warrant travelling abroad to see another country. Just as Americans are made fun of for not seeing the world, many visitors are ridiculed for seeing only New York and Florida or other large 'tourist' cities without seeing the vast expanses in between.
To add, many people just don't get enough holiday time to make it financially worthwhile travelling abroad, with vacation/holiday time often being as low as 7-10 days a year, and in some instances that includes sick days, the norm being that you have worked for a year before really getting any time off...because of that, you'll see a "live to work" rather than a "work to live" outlook on life. This is also why many of us involve our kids in sports and other community activities. We LIKE where we live. We spend the weekends hiking the canyons, camping, or taking a walk around the lake with a picnic in tow.
Yes, it's true that those in England have less cancer, weigh less, and walk more.
Yes, it's true that Americans have prettier teeth. Who cares???
Come if you'd like, don't come if you don't like. We really don't care much either way. You won't stand out. We're a country of immigrants! Don't expect any special treatment. For the most part, people are REAL, they'll tell you what they think, and don't need to talk behind your back.
It will indeed be quite a change between CA and UK, but I don't think it will be too bad, in fact, I think it will be very fun for you and your kids. Perhaps you're already there, and if so, I hope you like it. I hope you took what Antibes said with a grain of salt.
As to you, Antibes, though I am sure you won't read this, your claims about Americans are sadly one sided. You lump "Europeans" together as if they are one people, when, in fact they are not, and assume all Americans are like the few you've met. Boo-hoo.
As to the claims that Americans have no culture, please do not forget our nation is much, much younger than the continents of Europe, Asia, and Africa. Though we are much younger, we've made a great many contributions to the world, including great artists and musicians. We've got great scientists and inventors. I am not saying we're better or have more culture, but I am saying we've got culture and it's unique to our country. To claim that we don't merely shows your snobbery. Just because you don't like Elvis, Basket Ball, Modern Cinema (which includes Hollywood drivel as well as Indie and Artistic films), Jazz, Rock and Roll, and innovative hygiene doesn't mean we don't have culture.
I do understand the frustration with modern perception that things have to be easy--electric, pills, a quick solution. I wasn't aware that that problem was uniquely American. The Chinese, for instance, have Dieter's Tea, and I was under the impression that all cultures with technology would use it to make life easier. Dish washers, washing machines, and other appliances do the same thing. I've seen those in Europe, too.
I also understand frustration with shallow relationships...but I understand that it takes a lot of time spent together with shared experiences to build relationships. I know that, why don't you? We may tell you something that you think is personal, but to us, it might not be. It's something that is bothering us and we are hoping talking about it will help or that the person we're telling will offer us insight we can use. It doesn't mean there's not a well of depth there. That's just what we're willing to share at the moment. I am sorry to say most of your examples are tainted by your own perception; it's a shame you believe that what you *think* is the truth, when in fact your brain may be skewed, wrong, misinterpreting, or biased. We're all biased, and we look at the world through those biased eyes. I am a shallow, vain, culture free American and I know this; I am sad that in all your infinite European wisdom that you're so ignorant to your own inherent bias and viewpoint. Hopefully you'll get a paradigm shift upside your head and stop being so stuck up.
Antibes, I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread very much.
I still think that there are genuinely good people in this country, as there are in any country, if you know where to look, but I agree with your portrait of American culture. That is my opinion; please don't be angry.
I do still go by the saying, however, that "Wherever you go, there you are." So for those relying on a place to change your circumstances, you may search an entire lifetime before coming upon such a place. Our setting and environment do affect us, that is certainly true, and it's true that some will never be happy in America, but, this country does offer happiness to many millions of people who choose to live here. For the rest of us, it is a wide world, one which we are thankfully free to explore and find a niche for ourselves. I also imagine leaving, not because life in America is awful, but mainly because I'm young and want to see what life is like elsewhere. The hardest thing is knowing how to leave and having the courage to leave!
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Knife cuts both ways on this one!
I also imagine leaving, not because life in America is awful, but mainly because I'm young and want to see what life is like elsewhere. The hardest thing is knowing how to leave and having the courage to leave!
