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Yes, for the most part. The funny thing about Denver's Hispanic population is that it looks big on paper but its a lot harder to find than it is in OC. The City and County of Denver is itself only about 1/5 of the entire metro area. So you're comparing 34% of 20% in Denver to 32% of all of OC.
So when are you making the big move? I think you are going to be much happier there. I know you have mentioned how expensive real estate is here and I would move too if we hadn't bought the quality of house we have at the price we did. Homeownership is SO much better than renting and you will love finally be able to own in Denver. We got lucky, but I don't know if our kids would ever be able to live here after college if it stays so expensive.
Are Denver's suburb cities really white? Denver itself is 34% Hispanic with 21% speaking Spanish as their first language and Orange County is 32% Hispanic with 25% speaking Spanish first. I don't see how moving there escapes Hispanics (which I never understood why people find them so annoying) and people speaking Spanish unless you stay in the suburbs, but the Hispanic population will grow there just like it did in OC. Are the suburbs really white in Denver?
Certain areas are. Douglas County, as well as the northwest corridor does feel largely all white, at least anecdotally. Aurora and part of east/southeast Denver, otoh is pretty diverse, with pretty large Russian, Korean, Indian, Vietnamese, Latin American and African American populations. Personally I think ethnic diversity, on top of a more or less generic American "base," is a good thing-- but diversity in the true sense of the word when there's literally a diverse range of nationalities from all different parts of the world, including Spanish speaking people but others as well, and different groups within the US represented. At the high school I went to, in the International Baccalaureate program, I used to hear at least 3 or 4 different languages every time I walked down the hallway. Often times today, the word "diversity" means simply non-white, so a 100% Spanish speaking area would be considered "diverse" in some people's worldview. Even in parts of town though where hardly any Hispanics/Latinos live, you'll still probably come into contact with illegal immigrants on perhaps a daily basis, depending on what you do.
I still think though that if you honestly hate the Spanish language that much even Colorado is not your place, because you'll still hear quite a bit of it. Go to the back kitchens of any restaurant, the cleaning staff of any hotel, any construction site, any industrial/manufacturing plant, even in the far, outer "white" suburbs of Denver, and I guarantee you'll be hearing Spanish. Even in all white areas you'll still be presented with the English or Espanol option when you self-check out at the grocery store. It's only going to become more that way, not less. Perhaps North Dakota... even Canada?
Last edited by vegaspilgrim; 09-01-2008 at 11:36 AM..
I thought Costa Mesa was considered south OC? I guess not. In terms of the Tijuanification, there is no guarantee that couldn't happen next in Denver, as certain sectors of town are already like that (ie-- that Federal Blvd photo tour I posted a week ago). I went into the Target in Costa Mesa in one of those shopping centers I pictured and I did notice quite a few Spanish speaking people there, just like everywhere else in LA-- or Phoenix. Still, your neck of the woods there looks awfully good compared to the neighborhood I'm living in right now. Here, over the summer I got a police beat email almost every week, sometimes every few days about a new armed robbery of a pedestrian (usually USC students), some of them were right where I live and just a few blocks away. Every single building here has bars on the windows. When you exit I-10 onto the Vermont offramp, the first thing you see is garbage strewn all over the side of the road. If you want to talk Tijuanification, there's guys who push hand held carts all day long up and down the streets selling everything from ice cream bars to fruit to tacos. Not to mention those "roach coaches" that park on the side of the road selling tacos all day and night long. I also hear helicopters flying directly overhead almost every day. Just last week the police had Vermont closed off with helicopters flying everywhere, apparently there was a shooting at a bank on Crenshaw and the suspect got away. Once you go east of the 110, it looks like you're in the pits of the earth. Point is... your neck of the woods looks like paradise compared to here.
I understand what you're saying though. A few months ago, you may or may not remember I briefly researched the possibility of living in OC after graduation, as all the major accounting firms have OC offices. The thought briefly popped into my mind as I was exploring yesterday. Unfortunately, from what I learned it sounds like even if the office is based in Irvine or Costa Mesa I'd still be driving around all over the place and probably be sent to LA anyway on assignments, as auditors spend most of their time at the client's workplace. I figure it just plain isn't worth living anywhere in the greater LA metro area if your job is the kind of thing where you have to drive around everywhere and you don't have a fixed workplace you can plan your life around. There are some major jobs in south OC though, for example, Capital Group Companies, a mutual fund management company, recently moved their accounting office to a brand new building in Irvine. I'm not really interested in that line of work though. There are ways to make living and working in south OC happen if that truly is your hopes and dreams, the only question is to what sacrifice are you willing to go? I've also done the math and after living here just a few months, I see what you get living in LA, and I think it sucks. The problem with OC is that it's still a suburb of LA. That's why I'm telling the recruiters I want to work in their Denver office. But at the same time I can see how parts of Orange County are NICE.
Nice pics....agree, for moderate incomes, Irvine area offers some of best QOL anywhere; even if one works in Downtown LA, would prob pick Irvine for a family residence over anywhere else in LA region....the refreshing newness, well-planned layout, great weather, relatively clean air, good schools, high-speed toll roads nearby...having driven many, many times around disparate parts of LA region for various business mtgs at varying times of day, would argue LA traffic is much easier to navigate than many claim; it's far more annoying than SF-SV traffic, but far more efficient than NYC/Chic regions' traffic flows
May want to look into accounting positions in SiliconValley...the tech cos. are clustered (OC-like) in suburban office parks in the 30mi long corridor from Redwood Shores to SJ....and, as many have joked, SV prob has most of world's wealthiest accountants....who migrated from acctg firms to finance offices of the various tech cos. at early stages....and amassed 8 and 9-figure net worths from stock and stock options....
Doubt there's another place on planet like SV that will continue to spawn future googles, Ciscos, Apples, ebays, etc....IMO, potentially far more lucrative career opportunities than any allegedly lower COL region....there are many valid reasons why some regions have such lower COL...
I still think though that if you honestly hate the Spanish language that much even Colorado is not your place, because you'll still hear quite a bit of there. Go to the back kitchens of any restaurant, the cleaning staff of any hotel, any construction site, any industrial/manufacturing plant, even in the far, outer "white" suburbs of Denver, and I guarantee you'll be hearing Spanish coming out of the back kitchens. Even in all white areas you'll still be presented with the English or Espanol option when you self-check out at the grocery store. It's only going to become more that way, not less. Perhaps North Dakota... even Canada?
It has never bugged me, but it helps that I speak Spanish almost fluently. I just consider it an opportunity to practice when someone speaks in Spanish. Our nation is a melting pot, and I think people should learn English, but if they aren't fluent yet, they shouldn't need to hide from society. I don't like how Americans expect everybody on planet earth to be speaking English. Japanese people will talk to each other in Japanese, Koreans to each other in Korea, Germans in German, etc... but people aren't usually offended by those. In almost every country people can speak at least two languages, but Americans only learn one. One of my best friends is German and she will talk to her daughter in German and I have no clue what just went on, but it doesn't bug me. Then again, being white, people wouldn't be so prejudice against her and probably think the language is exotic and "cool". I especially hate it when we (Americans) go to another country and then constantly speak to the residents in English expecting just everyone to understand us and then get frustrated when they don't. My son had a really good experience when his AP Spanish 4 class did a project with the English Learner Class and my son learned so much about his partner. I was glad it made my son realize everything isn't perfect in the "South OC Bubble" and a lot of people have more difficult lives than him. I don't mind some hard working people speaking Spanish at the grocery next to me. Most are nice people.
****Rant over, I don't usually do that on here****
I still think though that if you honestly hate the Spanish language that much even Colorado is not your place, because you'll still hear quite a bit of there. Go to the back kitchens of any restaurant, the cleaning staff of any hotel, any construction site, any industrial/manufacturing plant, even in the far, outer "white" suburbs of Denver, and I guarantee you'll be hearing Spanish coming out of the back kitchens. Even in all white areas you'll still be presented with the English or Espanol option when you self-check out at the grocery store. It's only going to become more that way, not less. Perhaps North Dakota... even Canada?
I'm not trying to completely get away from Mexicans and the Spanish language and I don't think I could short of moving to Yellowknife. I'm just tired of feeling like more and more of a foreigner in my own country. Like you said, Denver has ethnic diversity on a white American base. I'd say LA has already lost its base. One thing my wife and I both noticed in Denver is that there seem to be more 2nd generation Joe Sanchezes than fresh-out-of-the-river standing in front of Home Depot Jose Sanchezes like we have here. I also saw whites and blacks doing jobs in Denver that long ago became 100% performed by Mexicans in SoCal.
So when are you making the big move? I think you are going to be much happier there. I know you have mentioned how expensive real estate is here and I would move too if we hadn't bought the quality of house we have at the price we did. Homeownership is SO much better than renting and you will love finally be able to own in Denver. We got lucky, but I don't know if our kids would ever be able to live here after college if it stays so expensive.
Not soon enough. We have to stay here long enough to pay off some bills and put ourselves if a better financial position before moving. We just got back from a week in Denver and each time, it gets harder and harder to leave. I know a of of people move there to trade their 1600sf house for a 4000sf house. That's not us. We'd be more than happy with 1600sf that we can afford to call our own. I just don't see that ever happening here. And you're right about your kids. I see so many kids graduating college and moving out of state because the prospects of living with mom and dad or sharing a crappy little apartment just don't appeal to them and that's what staying here means.
I'm not trying to completely get away from Mexicans and the Spanish language and I don't think I could short of moving to Yellowknife. I'm just tired of feeling like more and more of a foreigner in my own country. Like you said, Denver has ethnic diversity on a white American base. I'd say LA has already lost its base. One thing my wife and I both noticed in Denver is that there seem to be more 2nd generation Joe Sanchezes than fresh-out-of-the-river standing in front of Home Depot Jose Sanchezes like we have here. I also saw whites and blacks doing jobs in Denver that long ago became 100% performed by Mexicans in SoCal.
Ok, that makes a lot of sense. But at least in SoCal, you know, you don't have to shovel sunshine. j/k.
Ok, that makes a lot of sense. But at least in SoCal, you know, you don't have to shovel sunshine. j/k.
Haha true but at least in Denver I'll own the driveway I'm shoveling. And I'll do my best to get a south or west facing driveway so the sun can do some of the work for me.
Nice pics....agree, for moderate incomes, Irvine area offers some of best QOL anywhere; even if one works in Downtown LA, would prob pick Irvine for a family residence over anywhere else in LA region....the refreshing newness, well-planned layout, great weather, relatively clean air, good schools, high-speed toll roads nearby...having driven many, many times around disparate parts of LA region for various business mtgs at varying times of day, would argue LA traffic is much easier to navigate than many claim; it's far more annoying than SF-SV traffic, but far more efficient than NYC/Chic regions' traffic flows
May want to look into accounting positions in SiliconValley...the tech cos. are clustered (OC-like) in suburban office parks in the 30mi long corridor from Redwood Shores to SJ....and, as many have joked, SV prob has most of world's wealthiest accountants....who migrated from acctg firms to finance offices of the various tech cos. at early stages....and amassed 8 and 9-figure net worths from stock and stock options....
Doubt there's another place on planet like SV that will continue to spawn future googles, Ciscos, Apples, ebays, etc....IMO, potentially far more lucrative career opportunities than any allegedly lower COL region....there are many valid reasons why some regions have such lower COL...
I think you're definitely on to something, hsw. If I was just born 20 years earlier... I've always wondered how the accounting would work for the tech industry, where most of a company's wealth is recorded in non-tangible assets, or assets that can't be recorded on the books at all. I think in many ways NorCal is an improvement over SoCal, in other ways a step in the wrong direction. I've only been up there once about 6 or 7 years ago.
For me though, cost of living is not the primary determinant. If I was just otherwise enthrilled with the greater LA area, I would probably just suck it up and plan to stay here after graduation. COL is a factor for me, but even more important to me are family, geography, overall size and feel of the city, the economy and diversity of industries, and sports teams allegiances-- ie-- blue and orange. (only half-kidding about that one). For a while there I even considered moving to Albuquerque, NM. I've put that one on the back burner for now. I think Denver, while not perfect, comes closest to what I'm looking for at this point in time. At the same time though, I recognize there are places with an even wider range of opportunities (SV being one, not to mention NYC, where a lot of my peers are going after they graduate, and even emerging international cities like Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, etc). I'm looking for a balance-- something bigger and better than an ABQ but not an LA or a Bay Area either.
I'm looking for a balance-- something bigger and better than an ABQ but not an LA or a Bay Area either.
Sounds like Denver to me.
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I've always wondered how the accounting would work for the tech industry, where most of a company's wealth is recorded in non-tangible assets, or assets that can't be recorded on the books at all. I think in many ways NorCal is an improvement over SoCal, in other ways a step in the wrong direction. I've only been up there once about 6 or 7 years ago.
