Thoughts on Oregon's Future (Roseburg, Coos Bay: Home Depot, community college, salvaged)

[DoctorRain]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

No, the GDP includes all sorts of worthless money shuffling like Goldman Sacks and destructive retail operations like Wal-Mart that produce nothing, not to speak of the hourly take of millions of lawyers. I was specifically talking about people who create new wealth rather than drain wealth from the productive people of the nation. Oregon has a surprising number of productive people, which is probably why so many of them are unemployed.

Thats a lot of wasted talent then. Unless it will just bloom later.

The cause of this is a whole other blame game I can play though, but I will save for another time.

[aroseinrain]

Originally Posted by DoctorRain

If I don't feel its needed, then I don't want to pay for any of it. Its that simple.

In an ideal world (one where people care and want to look out for each other) this would work, but just imagine what it would do to services like schools and homeless shelters. So many people would think, "if I don't contribute to the homeless shelters or schools this year I can upgrade to a 4 bedroom house by next year.." or some such.

[DoctorRain]

Originally Posted by aroseinrain

In an ideal world (one where people care and want to look out for each other) this would work, but just imagine what it would do to services like schools and homeless shelters. So many people would think, "if I don't contribute to the homeless shelters or schools this year I can upgrade to a 4 bedroom house by next year.." or some such.

I just think that whatever it is you believe in, move to the place that caters to that and pay their taxes for the things more closer to your beliefs.

I believe in taxes for social programs. I don't wanna pay for public schools frankly, just more voluntary education programs instead or social programs where people can get alternative schooling or to be taught actual life skills instead of history lessons that the US Govt helped fabricate anyhow. Abe Lincoln was not an honest man and what the hell are you gonna do with algebra UNLESS you become an engineer or something or your in electronics. With voluntary education, at least if you wanna be an engineer, you will be told, you HAVE to take math. It shouldnt be a requirement to take all these subjects in grade school if you are gonna be a garbageman or a security guard.
I think there are just alternate solutions to run things and taxes should help pay for that kinda stuff. If you have autistic children, then groups should be formed for it or support for people like this. Just dont make them sit through forced school (aka prison for kids) if they aren't gonna gain anything out of it.

Also for me, its not about that 4 bedroom house. I can handle the taxes if I make decent enough money to get by. I just want it to be for stuff I am for.

[aroseinrain]

I agree that there are a lot of subjects being taught in public schools that are a waste of time (like cursive!) and stuff that's not being taught that needs to be taught (like how to have a successful job interview or why it's easier in the long run if you get a college education right out of high school). But math up to about 6th grade is an asset and english (both writing it and speaking it) is an asset, a foreign language is an asset and should be mandatory from 1st grade on.

Perhaps if you were required to pay the same amount as usual (or more) in taxes but got to check off 5 items that you want the majority of your money to go to....?

[Larry Caldwell]

A productive stand of Douglas Fir, on an 80 year harvest rotation, will yield approximately $50 per year per acre. East side pine forests grow slower and the wood is of lower value, so they may drop as low as $20/year/acre. Oregon has about 30 million acres of forest, so on an average, Oregon could produce about $900 million a year in raw logs. When you add value added milling and wood products like furniture, the wood products industry has the potential to add about $3 billion a year to Oregon's economy on an endlessly renewable basis. The reason it doesn't is that the industry has been almost regulated out of existence. The current housing slump is temporary, but the destruction of the timber industry has been going on for decades.

[Larry Caldwell]

Originally Posted by DoctorRain

what the hell are you gonna do with algebra UNLESS you become an engineer or something or your in electronics.

The only people who ask that question don't know algebra.

You are retired, and your income fits comfortably within the 15% tax bracket. However, you decide you want to buy a new car, and it's going to cost you $35,000. Tapping your 401k for the money will push anything over $19,256 into the 22% tax bracket plus, of course, Oregon's 9% income tax. How much do you have to pull out of your 401k to cover the cost of the car and all your tax liabilities? Is it really worth it?

If you know algebra, it would take you less than 5 minutes to find the answer. It's a simple linear equation. Unfortunately, most of the population is so innumerate that they couldn't figure it out to save their life. They will end up paying penalties to the IRS because they didn't make their estimated tax payment, but hey, what's a few hundred bucks?

BTW, that new car is going to chew $48,771.13 out of your 401k. Don't you wish you knew algebra?

[aroseinrain]

Can't all that math be done on a calculator? Why do they make you learn how to do it with a pencil? In which jobs in the year 2011 are you required to do a bunch of algebra without using a calculator or a computer?

People don't even make change of $5 without using a computer these days.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

The only people who ask that question don't know algebra.

You are retired, and your income fits comfortably within the 15% tax bracket. However, you decide you want to buy a new car, and it's going to cost you $35,000. Tapping your 401k for the money will push anything over $19,256 into the 22% tax bracket plus, of course, Oregon's 9% income tax. How much do you have to pull out of your 401k to cover the cost of the car and all your tax liabilities? Is it really worth it?

If you know algebra, it would take you less than 5 minutes to find the answer. It's a simple linear equation. Unfortunately, most of the population is so innumerate that they couldn't figure it out to save their life. They will end up paying penalties to the IRS because they didn't make their estimated tax payment, but hey, what's a few hundred bucks?

BTW, that new car is going to chew $48,771.13 out of your 401k. Don't you wish you knew algebra?

Larry--thanks for this post. You said it much better than I could.

When I hire people to run shifts, at least high school algebra is always something that I look for. I need people who can manage time and who can think in ratios.

Algerba teaches people how to think properly; how to manage time and manage production schedules.

It's hardly an unnecessary skill.

[Fiddlehead]

[quote=Larry Caldwell;17543616]A productive stand of Douglas Fir, on an 80 year harvest rotation, will yield approximately $50 per year per acre. East side pine forests grow slower and the wood is of lower value, so they may drop as low as $20/year/acre. Oregon has about 30 million acres of forest, so on an average, Oregon could produce about $900 million a year in raw logs. When you add value added milling and wood products like furniture, the wood products industry has the potential to add about $3 billion a year to Oregon's economy on an endlessly renewable basis. The reason it doesn't is that the industry has been almost regulated out of existence. The current housing slump is temporary, but the destruction of the timber industry has been going on for decades.[/quote]

Thanks for the summary. I agree that forestry is not a trivial contributor to the Oregon economy. I also agree that demand will come back, at least in part. However, I don't have any easy answer for the decline of the industry. It strikes me as more than regulation. Automation, market forces,etc. also have had a major impact. Unfortunately, I have no clue how much should be invested in the sector, other than to say that it should be a source of pride, done well and sustainably.

[mdvaden]

Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell

The current housing slump is temporary, but the destruction of the timber industry has been going on for decades.

Personally, I think logging is fine if managed right. But the logging industry pretty much self-destructed itself decades ago on its own. The real problem is that the loggers never regulated themselves. They really had first-crack at it, but chose to take the extreme path previously.

In the end, they logged-away ecosystems that require upwards of 300 to 400 years to repair again. Unfortunately, there tend to be extremists on both sides of the issue.

Not sure how to achieve it, but if the cost of wood could triple, the logging industry could more than double wages without increasing harvest. I buy wood for work, but have to admit that I think the prices are too cheap when I see the tags on the racks.

One problem seems to be that wood is not treated as a renewable resource, but an invaluable resource.