Solar Curious (Eugene, Salem, Hillsboro: lease, appliances, credit)

[MamaRed]

My husband and I are still working on our move north from Southern California. We've seen house listings, stating the home is solar. We're in Palm Springs, so solar and wind energy are something we're fairly familiar with. Without solar, our August electric bill is easily $600-700 (yep, just for one month). A friend with solar, down the street, would pay $1-2 in August, but she earns credit during the other months, so no bills. Many posters here like to emphasize that there is no sun, EVER, in Oregon. Since this is obviously untrue, it's difficult to know how much sun there really is. Is solar really a selling point for a home in Oregon (Eugene/Salem areas)? If a home isn't already solar, is it financially worthwhile to convert? We would like to be as "environmentally friendly" as possible.

[PNW-type-gal]

Obviously, in Eugene (or Salem, in general the weather is pretty similar up and down the Willamette Valley, with odd little microclimates thrown in) your summer bill won't be as high and your winter bill should never be that high. On the NREL maps, Eugene average about 4-4.5 solar hours per day (it is based on sunny days per year and hours of sun per day). The same map shows Palm Springs at about 8.5-9 solar hours per day. The electric rate will also be much lower in Eugene than it is in Palm Springs. The combination of lower rates and less sun makes solar a more expensive bet here, with a longer payback time, and if you are looking at your first steps to lowering electric (or gas or propane) costs, there are other avenues to go down before solar.

A house with a PV system already set up should be a plus, IF the owner or builder has already done all the obvious, cheaper things to the house - insulated it well, put in quality windows, efficient appliances etc.

I'm on the other side of the Cascades, where it is colder in winter but sunnier. We get about 6 solar hours per day and our system has provided enough electricity that we haven't paid an electric bill since about May. We just got the bill for this very cold and snowy December and we've used the last of our "banked" power credits. On the other hand, we are on a special rate contract with Pacific Power, and our small (ish) house was built recently to be passive solar and very efficient.

Check to see what kind of agreement the current PV system is on - is the house entirely off grid, is it grid-tied with net-metering or on a rate tariff plan (like my house). The tariff plan requires a 15 year program participation but it kicks back a nice monthly check as well. Most of the solar programs rebate programs in the state require approved systems installed by licensed installers, particularly on grid-tie installations, so there is a little less worry about buying into a dicey home-brew DIY system.

[hamellr]

Solar Panels work off of UV rays, not direct sunlight. On cloudy days you still get UV rays, just at a diminished rate vs. a full sunny day. Newer technologies are coming out that will allow panels to work in the infrared spectrum, meaning they'll work at night too.

Your biggest problem with Solar Panels is that the Chinese stuff is very cheap junk. The low end manufacturers have a lot of little tricks to make their panels seem more efficient on paper. Due to shortcuts in manufacturing the effective lifespan is only 15-20 years instead of 30-40. And the real output is anywhere between 50-75% of a better quality panel. Low end panels tend to degrade faster, so their efficiency drops rapidly after the first couple of years. Especially if they're not "burned in" - which is very rare.

There is little regulation in the industry, so for now manufacturers can get away with stuff like this. Congress had been floating some legislation or tariffs on Chinese panels last year, but lobbyists for the Chinese industry ended up killing that.

Solar World out of Hillsboro is an example of a good quality local manufacturer. They have installed panels that are nearing the 50 year mark and are still at 75% of their original efficiency. You can't buy from them directly, but they have a great piece of software that will allow you to find out what your output is going to be based on your longitude/latitude, any shade trees around your house, and even the effect of local hills and mountains.

More importantly, they also keep an up to date list of all the tax credits and kick backs you can get for installing a system. They have this sorted out by area, so can give you a reasonable estimate of the credits available based on the installation properties address.

I have no affiliation with Solar World, other then a strong desire to keep a relatively large local employer in business, and a strong appreciation of their products after over a year of research into the industry. They are highly recommended among the three different electricians I talked to while I was shopping around.

Solar is a huge selling point for a home, assuming the roof is relatively new. If the roof is older then ten years, then it'll be a huge negative because the roof should likely be replaced then. The higher quality solar manufacturers build their panels modular with quick release systems for this reason. You'll likely need to replace the roof two or three times over the life of the panels, and being able to take them off without the help of an electrician is a huge bonus.

Keep in mind that I have not installed yet, as my roof is 8 years old and didn't get replaced last summer as scheduled, so my experiences are all on the research side so far. PNW seems to have good practical experience, everything she says is right within my expectations,

[karlsch]

Originally Posted by hamellr

.......
Your biggest problem with Solar Panels is that the Chinese stuff is very cheap junk. The low end manufacturers have a lot of little tricks to make their panels seem more efficient on paper. Due to shortcuts in manufacturing the effective lifespan is only 15-20 years instead of 30-40. And the real output is anywhere between 50-75% of a better quality panel. Low end panels tend to degrade faster, so their efficiency drops rapidly after the first couple of years. Especially if they're not "burned in" - which is very rare.

That's one of the standard excuses given when the US has a hard time competing against foreign competition. (The same excuses were used years ago when the US was confronted with a then rising Japan.) The truth is, China has many very intelligent people and they are very, very good at manufacturing a very wide variety of things.

“This dominance isn’t due to cheap labor in Chinese factories:”...... “The new factories have the latest, most efficient equipment, which helps cut costs. So do the efficiencies that come with size. As a result, Chinese manufacturers have been able to undercut other makers of silicon solar panels “.......

The whole story:
The Chinese Solar Machine | MIT Technology Review

[PNW-type-gal]

Kind of an embarrassing article from MIT, as it ENTIRELY skips the issue of subsidies. Depending on which report you believe (and there are probably 5 or 6 floating around as a result of the trade complaint by US manufacturers), Chinese panels are subsidized by the Chinese government to the tune of 7-15% of the wholesale cost of the panels - subsidies in the form of loans, grants, rebates and kickbacks for building the plants, operating the plants, training workers and shipping. US manufacturers receive subsidies in the neighborhood of 2% of panel cost.

[Minervah]

Originally Posted by karlsch

That's one of the standard excuses given when the US has a hard time competing against foreign competition. (The same excuses were used years ago when the US was confronted with a then rising Japan.) The truth is, China has many very intelligent people and they are very, very good at manufacturing a very wide variety of things.

“This dominance isn't due to cheap labor in Chinese factories:”...... “The new factories have the latest, most efficient equipment, which helps cut costs. So do the efficiencies that come with size. As a result, Chinese manufacturers have been able to undercut other makers of silicon solar panels “.......

The whole story:
The Chinese Solar Machine | MIT Technology Review

A bit of my two cents here. My BIL in Toronto had was going to expand his already successful small factory to making solar panels as a supplier to a German company. He was out bid, outmaneuvered and otherwise outclassed by the Chinese to his chagrin. In short he underestimated them completely. So back to making lawn furniture and Cannon digital camera displays amongst other things.

[MamaRed]

Thanks for all your responses. We are really excited about our move. We both have lived in Southern California most of our lives, and are trying to learn as much about the ins and outs of Oregon daily life as possible. It's very helpful to know what to look for, and what to look out for.

[hamellr]

Originally Posted by karlsch

That's one of the standard excuses given when the US has a hard time competing against foreign competition. (The same excuses were used years ago when the US was confronted with a then rising Japan.) The truth is, China has many very intelligent people and they are very, very good at manufacturing a very wide variety of things.

I understand your point that it's not all about the technology, but there are numerous ways that companies make their panels seem better on paper then the really are. There are irregardless of the manufacturer - even American Companies do these.

- Solar Panels have a sharp drop off of up to 30% in their output about 48 hours after manufacture. A lot of companies measure the output before the drop off.

- The more pure the silicon used in the manufacture of the PV panels, the longer it takes for the PV to break down. Many manufactures go with lower quality silicon to shave costs. This reduces the effective life of the panels, and your output curve is much steeper then a different brand may be.

- By design, the outside 1/2 inch to 1 inch of a panel is covered by the holding frame. A lot of manufactures measure output via the actual panel size, vs. what is actually exposed to the sun.

- Climate plays a factor in the efficiency and life of a solar panel. You would think that constant sunny days and 90 degree weather would be a good thing for solar panels, but in fact the ambient heat breaks down silicon faster - unless the panel has been built with that fact in mind. Such as side vents for cooling, a different colored case, a different glaze on the top coating, or a different material for the case.

None of these are bad things, they're just something to be aware of when buying low quality panels. It's like buying a car - sure it gets 40MPG. On a test track in perfect conditions with a professional driver who can drive 85MPH and doesn't have to deal with traffic. But in the real world it's lucky to get 35MPG.

[BruceM]

We had a 3.76 kw system installed on our house in Corvallis on 9/2011. We have not had a power bill other than for basic service since April of 2012. The last time I looked, in late Nov, we still had a little over 1,000 kwh banked.
Our house is around 1750 sq ft, built in 1974 but recently remodeled and well insulated. We never had to turn on the AC last summer. We have a solar powered attic ventilator also.
I did a lease deal with Solar City which worked out very well. They maintain the equipment for the lease term -15 years. At the end of the lease I can keep the panels unless they contact me within 90 days requesting them back - unlikely that they will want to take them back after 15 years anyway. I paid Solar City a total of $5180. I have NO monthly payments to them and I received $6,000 of OR state tax credits - $1,500 per year for 4 years as a write off against my state tax bill.
I never heard about cheap Chinese panels with low output. Sounds like an urban myth to me. My panels were from Canadian Solar and I do not know if they were manufactured in China.

[MamaRed]

Thanks for the info, Bruce. Coming from the desert (summers hitting 120), I'm thinking it could be a couple of years before Oregon summers will require AC. It's helpful to have company names and dollar amounts. The route you took sounds like something we could pull off fairly easily.