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I'm a Republican partisan and hate taxes with a passion buy I do think you should have a sales tax so all the deadbeats pay something. But only if that would reduce property and income tax and that will never happen!
What an amazing and very telling post.
"I hate paying for things and think other people should pay for them."
You're the taker you complain so bitterly about. You realize this, yes?
ha ha ha ho ho ho.... Ok, so I spent hundreds of dollars this season on the internet.... We spent 90 on the prime rib roast. I'm feeding 9 people this year. If we were vegan I would have saved a ton on meat!
There are deadbeats at all levels people don't kid yourselves. I grew up in a neighborhood that specialized in breeding government dependent people. You have not really lived until your neighbor asks why I go to work for just a tiny bit more money than he gets for doing zilch.
Political perspective. Yes, Oregon needs an income tax. Leave the rest of the taxes in place. It might shake a few people up enough to finally say WTH?!?!?!!? If you don't like it, vote for change or move. I voted with my feet. My retirement acct is thanking me already.
Texas floats on their oil taxes, so the whole country pays tax to Texas. Oregon's income tax has some benefits. I finally talked my wife into retiring after she saw our income tax bill from last year. It's going to take a bite out of my tax sheltered accounts starting when I turn 70.5 though.
Texas floats on their oil taxes, so the whole country pays tax to Texas. Oregon's income tax has some benefits. I finally talked my wife into retiring after she saw our income tax bill from last year. It's going to take a bite out of my tax sheltered accounts starting when I turn 70.5 though.
While oil is one aspect of the Texas economy. It isn't the only thing going on. What I find refreshing is the way taxes are collected. Sales tax is a straight up consumptive tax. Everyone pays it. Buy less stuff pay less tax. Property taxes are high but our schools (here in the burbs) are better than what I was paying for in Portland. Taxes paid per square foot are 1/2 of what I paid in Portland (apples to apples). If Texas is all oil we are about to be in trouble. I think it will just slow the economy down some in the state.
I don't hear anyone complaining about cheap fuel.
Use fees are the most honest ways to collect tax in general. I hear people howling about sales taxes affecting the "poor". Even Texas has tax free holidays for energy efficient appliances, and back to school stuff (very wide category)
Whole unprepared foods are un-taxed.
A sales tax collects money from everyone fairly. Don't wanna pay tax? There is always craigslist. The guy you buy from will pay tax when he spends your money.
A progressive (remember that word) income tax looks like it punishes achievement. If you went to college and worked hard to get ready for the world you get to pay more tax. You get less of what you worked hard to get. Your family gets less.
No system is perfect, Fair means across the board, not only for some. Can we meet somewhere between Ayn Rand and Karl Marx?
While oil is one aspect of the Texas economy. It isn't the only thing going on. What I find refreshing is the way taxes are collected. Sales tax is a straight up consumptive tax. Everyone pays it. Buy less stuff pay less tax. Property taxes are high but our schools (here in the burbs) are better than what I was paying for in Portland. Taxes paid per square foot are 1/2 of what I paid in Portland (apples to apples). If Texas is all oil we are about to be in trouble. I think it will just slow the economy down some in the state.
I don't hear anyone complaining about cheap fuel.
Use fees are the most honest ways to collect tax in general. I hear people howling about sales taxes affecting the "poor". Even Texas has tax free holidays for energy efficient appliances, and back to school stuff (very wide category)
Whole unprepared foods are un-taxed.
A sales tax collects money from everyone fairly. Don't wanna pay tax? There is always craigslist. The guy you buy from will pay tax when he spends your money.
A progressive (remember that word) income tax looks like it punishes achievement. If you went to college and worked hard to get ready for the world you get to pay more tax. You get less of what you worked hard to get. Your family gets less.
No system is perfect, Fair means across the board, not only for some. Can we meet somewhere between Ayn Rand and Karl Marx?
Given how narrow the income tax bands are, we don't actually have a progressive income tax. There is no significant difference on % tax on incomes for a couple earning $15,900 as $55,000 as $550,000 as $5,500,000.
There is also the argument that because of the federal tax deduction, taxes are actually regressive: higher on lower incomes:
Quote:
The results are surprising. In Oregon, income between $8,150 and $125,000 has a stated tax rate of 9 percent. But because of the federal subtraction, Listokin and Stegemiller found that income between $7,945 and $15,025 is taxed at effective rates between 7.65 and 8.1 percent, while income between $42,350 and $46,785 is taxed an effective rate of 6.75 percent.
On a purely theoretical level, a split between income taxes and sales taxes makes more sense - as you say, when times are tight you can cut some consumption (and usually things like groceries and medicines are not taxed). On a practical level, I am positive that no one trusts the legislature enough not to ratchet the rates up immediately.
Tourism is a big factor in Oregon's economy, and other than some pretty stiff hotel taxes, that is a sector that we don't tax. A 3-5% sales tax would be viewed as amusingly low by tourist and likely outrageous by residents.
A 3-5% sales tax would be viewed as amusingly low by tourist and likely outrageous by residents.
Not to mention that any tax system (or any system at all) comes with overhead costs.
In terms of administrative overhead it would cost both business and gov't the same amount to operate a sales tax system at 3% as it would at 8%. Though the unspoken advantage of overhead is that it creates jobs, and jobs are generally regarded as a good thing.
Efficiency and efficacy don't always go hand in hand and are sometimes at odds. But in regards to a system of taxation, a system with a low rate probably is likely to be a drag - some leaning towards efficiency strikes me as desirable in a tax system.
And sales tax really isn't all that efficient for small local businesses in particular, though the national chains could likely implement it pretty easily.
Not to mention that any tax system (or any system at all) comes with overhead costs.
In terms of administrative overhead it would cost both business and gov't the same amount to operate a sales tax system at 3% as it would at 8%. Though the unspoken advantage of overhead is that it creates jobs, and jobs are generally regarded as a good thing.
Efficiency and efficacy don't always go hand in hand and are sometimes at odds. But in regards to a system of taxation, a system with a low rate probably is likely to be a drag - some leaning towards efficiency strikes me as desirable in a tax system.
And sales tax really isn't all that efficient for small local businesses in particular, though the national chains could likely implement it pretty easily.
I think there are plenty of examples out there on how to administer a sales tax. I flinched when the bureaucracy needed to manage the taxation was mentioned. A statewide 6.25 with local jurisdictions taking additional 2% is all the incentive needed to get state and counties on board. My biggest pro for sales tax is it gets a piece of the gray money flying around. With people working cash jobs or unreported income the money gets taxed at the state/county level. Income taxes miss this every time.
I was in Mississippi couple years back and they have the triple threat. Property, income and sales tax. Even food was taxed. Property taxes are low. Sales tax was 7% (higher in some places). Income tax maxes out at 5%.
While not what I currently enjoy you get to pick your pain somewhat.
A tax overhaul is unlikely in Oregon anytime soon. We can dream.
I think there are plenty of examples out there on how to administer a sales tax. I flinched when the bureaucracy needed to manage the taxation was mentioned. A statewide 6.25 with local jurisdictions taking additional 2% is all the incentive needed to get state and counties on board. My biggest pro for sales tax is it gets a piece of the gray money flying around. With people working cash jobs or unreported income the money gets taxed at the state/county level. Income taxes miss this every time.
And what is also missed is that if you added up ALL the "gray money" that might be missed by an income tax only structure, it would not equal the tax breaks given to just one of the several Fortune 500's incorporated in Oregon! The forest is missed for the trees every time. Wage earners in the $20K/yr income category are hounded to death to pay back taxes of hundreds of dollars. Penalties and interest see to it that The Man will profit to the tune of thousands on the backs of these unfortunates. High wage earners pay cents on the dollar on their back taxes and their penalties are waived. And the really big guys don't pay taxes commensurate with their profits in the first place. The "losses" are incredible.
I wouldn't know how to game a sales tax system but I bet there are people who know how. Lots in fact. Do you really want to give unscrupulous retailers a mandate to rob you? In the name of going after some "gray money"? I believe NYC tops rankings of tax misery by a wide margin for having sales, income and property taxes equal to highest of any other state in the country, most of whom only have one or two of these revenue streams and none with all three into double digits. And the infrastructure is still sub-par, the schools, sub-par, environmental quality, sub-par... ... everytime the topic here turns to taxes I have to ask myself anew... what am I missing??!!
And what is also missed is that if you added up ALL the "gray money" that might be missed by an income tax only structure, it would not equal the tax breaks given to just one of the several Fortune 500's incorporated in Oregon! The forest is missed for the trees every time. Wage earners in the $20K/yr income category are hounded to death to pay back taxes of hundreds of dollars. Penalties and interest see to it that The Man will profit to the tune of thousands on the backs of these unfortunates. High wage earners pay cents on the dollar on their back taxes and their penalties are waived. And the really big guys don't pay taxes commensurate with their profits in the first place. The "losses" are incredible.
I wouldn't know how to game a sales tax system but I bet there are people who know how. Lots in fact. Do you really want to give unscrupulous retailers a mandate to rob you? In the name of going after some "gray money"? I believe NYC tops rankings of tax misery by a wide margin for having sales, income and property taxes equal to highest of any other state in the country, most of whom only have one or two of these revenue streams and none with all three into double digits. And the infrastructure is still sub-par, the schools, sub-par, environmental quality, sub-par... ... everytime the topic here turns to taxes I have to ask myself anew... what am I missing??!!
I never said no taxes for the wealthy. I said fair taxes. I am far from wealthy. Seems to me that in obsessing over the wealth of a few, we forget that even the least of us owes something to the community. Land of the free doesn't mean everything should be free.
Oregon has a pretty low tax rate for everybody. Yes, Texas takes a lower bite out of Texans, but we pay 4.6% of every barrel of oil produced so Texans can run around rich.
We have no state sales tax and no state property tax, and even poor people get their standard deduction tax free before income taxes even start to kick in. The only people who gripe about Oregon income taxes are pretty well to do. Oregon treats capital gains as ordinary income that is taxed at income tax rates. Thanks to a logging project, Oregon's income tax was really painful in 2013 because it pushed us into the top tax bracket, but that was a one shot thing. Our future income will be more modest. Treating capital gains as income is only sensible, though. It's hard to understand how the feds justify not lumping capital gains in with all other forms of income. Being rich has privileges, I guess, at least on the national level if not in Oregon.
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