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There is way too much information about KFFE Unit 4 here that is not correct.
First state building codes and state DEQ do not play into account in Klamath County. ANY building must be built to code even if it is under 220 square feet. The county charges $3.75 per sq. ft. for a building permit with 1000 sq. ft. minimum. This does not mean that you have to build at least 1000 sq. ft., but sets the minimum price of the permit at $3750 just for the building permit.
Second, as of this date you must have a well or at least 6000 gallon storage tank for water. The biggest issue here is where are you going to get the water. Unit 4 does not have a community well, only unit 1 and they restrict usage to people who have a legal dwelling in unit 1. Water is next to non-existence and wells hit from 130' to 900' (the community well in unit 1is 900') with an average of 500+.
Third, you can use any of the DEQ approved waste disposal systems, but the county requires you have a septic system installed still. The size of septic is a minimum of 375 foot drain field and a 1000 gallon tank if you are lucky enough to get approved for a standard system.
Forth, you are now allowed to camp on your property while building, but you must have a building permit in place and pay a $450 permit fee per year to do so. Yes there are a lot of people living here in campers and the code enforcement department won't come out to inspect unless a complaint is filed. Be aware that there are residents that will report you if you are a problem or dumping waste on ground, me being one of them.
Bottom line, call the Klamath County planning department for all your information needs as they are the only ones that will tell you exactly what you need. Be sure to ask lots of questions because they will not volunteer all information needed, as this is how the county makes the funds they need. Be prepared to spend at least $$$$$ in fees to develop your property. Don't believe what you read on this forum, contact the county to get the true answers.
I have owned property here for 12 years and have lived in unit 4 for 8 years and have had to deal with the county building our house. Be prepared for lots of hassle getting contractors out here to perform the work (I had to bring mine down from Bend to get the work done), as this area has a horrible reputation with old hells angels gang members, meth heads cooking, and 3 murders in the last 2 years alone, in a community that has just 35 legal residences in the combined units. Just last week a cabin of a friend that comes out in the summer was broken into and anything of value was taken and the rest totally destroyed. Law enforcement is 45 minutes away and they will only come out for major problems (unless you happen to be friends with them ).Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful place to live, but you need to be aware of all the issues that go with living here. Definitely not the place for the weak of heart or timid. And lastly YES, do carry a firearm for your own protection. Can't tell you how many times people have been threatened to be shot. Don't take my word, call the Sheriff's office and ask them about the area. It will make your head spin.
There's nothing like the voice of experience. I'm surprised at the minimum permit fee. Most counties in Oregon just charge a small percentage of the project value, but in an area as sparse as Klamath County I guess they have to set a minimum just to afford inspections.
Your comments about the well were great, but you stopped too soon. Once they drill their 500' hole and find water, they still have to get the water out of the hole. That's a really expensive pump, but only a fraction of what running power to the site would cost. Either they have to run a big noisy generator to get water, or they have to find an alternative. I have a friend in Idaho with a well that deep who installed a DC piston pump that ran on solar. The control systems took a little thought, because if the batteries were low it would burn up the pump. He pumped the water into a cistern located 60' above the house, which gave him 30 psi at the faucet, not great but enough pressure to take a shower. I have no idea where he found a DC piston water pump that would pump a 600' head. It pumped about 2 quarts a minute when it was running, which was plenty to keep the cistern full.
The solar couldn't keep up with the batteries in the winter, but that was 15 years ago. PV Solar has gotten cheaper and control systems have gotten more sophisticated. He bought ammonia cycle refrigerator and freezer, which cost a lot. The range and clothes dryer were propane, hot water was solar/propane and the heating system was hydronic. He found some solar collector tubes that would work in the winter. They put the collector inside a vacuum tube for insulation, and used heat exchangers to heat a manifold. More control systems. By the time he was done, it took an operating engineer to run the house.
I sympathize with your startup hassles. I developed bare land 40 years ago, and it was like climbing out of a black hole to get out of the city. Every time I turned around there was another thing I hadn't anticipated, and I had access to a free backhoe.
You're correct. Klamath County is probably the poorest in the state. A couple years back the county could not even afford fuel to keep their personnel on the road.
I posted because every year we have a huge influx of people wanting to "live like Daniel Boone" move in only to find they can not afford to develop the property they bought for a down and monthly payments usually from an internet dealer and then lose everything they invested because they failed to check with the county to see what they can and can not do. This area is zoned residential, so no RVs, no camping, no hunting, no off road vehicle riding unless you go to the BLM or National Forest (a short distance away). Everyone who lives here knows that most of these rules are ignored, but get someone mad and you will be reported. Then there is the weather. The last few winters have been extremely mild, but usually the 6+ foot of snow and below 0 temps for days on end weeds out the unprepared and weak. Only the main roads in (2) are plowed, so access to your property can be a pain. I have a mile of road I have to plow to maintain access to the main road and have had to run the plow twice a day!
The water pumping issue can be a major headache as you need 220V to bring it up from that depth. They do have some 48V systems that can pump the head lift, but cost can run you a pretty penny. We're totally off grid, even though we have 2 power poles on our property, because of the cost, again with the county permit and contractor to install ($5000 to have a temp pole 50" from the main line). Generators are noisy, but if you pump water to above your dwelling (roof line or higher) you will have adequate pressure (around 20#) and 6000 gallons (and don't forget that water will freeze, so you need heated room for your storage) can last a long time if you use restrictors, so you are not running the generator that much. We average 500 gallons a week for 2 people and that includes washing clothes in a full size washer (Ecosmart). Our toilet uses less that 32 ounces per flush and shower is .5 gallons a minute (has great pressure too).
Suffice to say, it is not an easy way of life, but I think it is the only way. By the way, we're in our sixties!
There is way too much information about KFFE Unit 4 here that is not correct.
First state building codes and state DEQ do not play into account in Klamath County. ANY building must be built to code even if it is under 220 square feet. The county charges $3.75 per sq. ft. for a building permit with 1000 sq. ft. minimum. This does not mean that you have to build at least 1000 sq. ft., but sets the minimum price of the permit at $3750 just for the building permit.
Second, as of this date you must have a well or at least 6000 gallon storage tank for water. The biggest issue here is where are you going to get the water. Unit 4 does not have a community well, only unit 1 and they restrict usage to people who have a legal dwelling in unit 1. Water is next to non-existence and wells hit from 130' to 900' (the community well in unit 1is 900') with an average of 500+.
Third, you can use any of the DEQ approved waste disposal systems, but the county requires you have a septic system installed still. The size of septic is a minimum of 375 foot drain field and a 1000 gallon tank if you are lucky enough to get approved for a standard system.
Forth, you are now allowed to camp on your property while building, but you must have a building permit in place and pay a $450 permit fee per year to do so. Yes there are a lot of people living here in campers and the code enforcement department won't come out to inspect unless a complaint is filed. Be aware that there are residents that will report you if you are a problem or dumping waste on ground, me being one of them.
Bottom line, call the Klamath County planning department for all your information needs as they are the only ones that will tell you exactly what you need. Be sure to ask lots of questions because they will not volunteer all information needed, as this is how the county makes the funds they need. Be prepared to spend at least $$$$$ in fees to develop your property. Don't believe what you read on this forum, contact the county to get the true answers.
I have owned property here for 12 years and have lived in unit 4 for 8 years and have had to deal with the county building our house. Be prepared for lots of hassle getting contractors out here to perform the work (I had to bring mine down from Bend to get the work done), as this area has a horrible reputation with old hells angels gang members, meth heads cooking, and 3 murders in the last 2 years alone, in a community that has just 35 legal residences in the combined units. Just last week a cabin of a friend that comes out in the summer was broken into and anything of value was taken and the rest totally destroyed. Law enforcement is 45 minutes away and they will only come out for major problems (unless you happen to be friends with them ).Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful place to live, but you need to be aware of all the issues that go with living here. Definitely not the place for the weak of heart or timid. And lastly YES, do carry a firearm for your own protection. Can't tell you how many times people have been threatened to be shot. Don't take my word, call the Sheriff's office and ask them about the area. It will make your head spin.
SunriverSam,
I have spoken with the appropriate people in the County offices. Perhaps things have changed since you built but I'm providing the link to the Building Permit lists for Klamath County and, unless they are purposely misleading and leaving off some sort of square footage fee, it seems that the residential structural permit fees are based on the dollar value cost and value of what you're building, based on an International Building Codes formula, and the number of inspections they're going to have to do, plus state fees. I will call and see if there IS a square footage fee that they're charging for but I'm not seeing it and no one has mentioned one. It's all dollar values. Interestingly enough, though, I budgeted $3,500 for the building permit because I don't know how it will all add up. So, I'm covered, in any case.
Secondly, I don't know why you distinguish between a "waste disposal system" and a "septic system." They're the same thing. You don't need both. If the land doesn't perc for a conventional septic system, then the state permits using one of the APPROVED alternative technologies rather than a capping fill (otherwise known as a sand filter) septic system which is VERY expensive and takes up a large amount of land. Yes, one might need to procure a variance to do so with the county, maybe not. But you don't need an alternative system AND a septic system. The Puraflo system utilizes a 1,000 gallon septic tank, if that's your concern. But it treats the effluent through a dosing tank and peat pods, rather than sending it through sand mounds.
Yeah, water is a challenge. I've found two bulk delivery services that cover a wide area. I haven't called them yet. I plan to use a greywater hookup from my sink to my toilet for flushing, a water miser RV shower head that uses 2 gallons every 5 minutes of showering, a vented RV washer-dryer combo that only uses 6 gallons per wash, and a very low-flo toilet which, again, will utilize greywater from my bathroom sink. I'll buy bottled water for drinking and cooking. All told, by my calculations, I'll only be drawing about 20 gallons per day from the cistern. Water is precious. We need to conserve it.
Look, I am not a stupid person. I've done a LOT of research, spoken with people in Klamath County and even in the state offices in Salem about the regs to make sure I know what I'm doing. I'm not selling my home and pulling up stakes only to get in a bind. I'm also an environmentalist and want to take good care of the land and be a good neighbor.
But I'm also not seeking to achieve a suburban lifestyle on a mountain. I lived more than the first half of my life in the Northeast. I've seen blizzards and bitter cold. I've also lived in the searing heat of Texas through incredible drought, plus hailstorms, freezes with no water or electric for days at a time. Mama didn't raise a fool or a weakling. My parents raised a strong woman who loves nature, appreciates simplicity, is a problem-solver, keeps a positive attitude, and knows how to get things done. I don't need or want a dishwasher, a bunch of electronics, or a big home. I'm building a 400-square-foot cabin in a beautiful place where I can live very simply. The irony is that the technology exists to be able to live off-the grid now but, yeah, it requires research and upfront costs to achieve that simplicity.
A lot of people want to do this and I believe in helping and encouraging people. I don't have my head in the clouds. I can't tell you how many times I screamed in frustration when it seemed I found some answers only to encounter more obstacles. And I'm sure that I'll encounter even more when I'm actually THERE soon putting things in place. I have hoped that people would be welcoming and neighborly, as that's how I tend to be.
Oh, a big question I do have -- I'm a freelance writer and internet access is important. What do you do for that? I've seen that Charter is in the area. Do they offer broadband service at KFFE? Or is the only option something like Hughes Net or using one's cellphone plan?
And wildlife -- have you seen bears regularly? Cougars, other cats, raptors? I'd like to have chickens but need to be prepared. The wolves are making a comeback around there, too, yeah?
My information is no more than 6 months old, except the square footage charge which I verified last month when I was told. Like I said in my post, call the county planning department. Yes waste disposal and septic are the same but Klamath has different rules than the state and do require a septic system even if doing a composting toilet or alternates not on the County list. Also all gray water must go thru the septic. Call Debbie at the county's onsite for the septic information. Good luck on your perk, as almost all test holes in your area have failed for standard septic and if you have done the research you found out cap and fill is around 12K now. Our standard ran us $8500 including fees. The square footage fee for the building permit was bumped up again this year by $.50, something they like to do every year or so. Actually a sand filter (cap and fill) takes less space on your property than a standard system, as you have no need for the drain field. You also have to have an alternate drain field area for future in case system fails and you can not build on that area. Here is a quote from the County's page; Note: Land Use Codes may have additional requirements.
Check with your local Planning Department before starting project, regardless of Building Permit requirements. Also, be aware the building permit fee is just for your building. Driveway, septic, development, and other fees are separate.
You can research till the cows come home, but you are not going to get any accurate information until you talk to ALL the departments at the Klamath County Planning office and ask specific questions. Ask them about new building permits issued for up here and will get an idea. I have not seen a new building startup here in many years because of the fees and issues. You have to think of everything to ask since they have a habit of not disclosing all information. Frankly, the city/county government here is poorly managed and a pain to work with. They still have the same department heads that were in place when I went thru the process. I can't tell you how many times I was mislead by one department only to have another department tell me something different. Don't rely on just reading from their site. Hauling water from Medford will be very expensive, as that is 100 miles from Bly Mountain. There may be a local hauling water since they started allowing water storage versus well as of late last year to be able to get the permit.
Only phone/internet service to Boar is wireless Verizon. Phone lines end about 300' up Blackbird from Hummingbird. There have been cats and bears in the area, but I haven't seen them for a year now. Raptors are definitely present and free range chickens make an excellent meal for them. This area is in a flyway with over 350 species of birds migrating every year. As far as the wolves only 1 has made it to the east side of the Cascades and that was just recently and nowhere near here. The others from OR7 are located west of the Cascades.
With medical and law enforcement so far away being a good neighbor is very important for your safety. Some people are nice but most are not, even though they come on that way. Just be careful! You're lucky if you are going to build on Boar, as there are only 3 families close to Boar located on Blackbird and all are good people, but just down the hill from Boar on Kingfisher you have several derelicts to watch out for. People disappear up here without a trace! My wife and I never walk around the area unless we are armed. Do yourself a favor and get a concealed weapons permit for your own safety and DO carry. Also, just don't say you have a weapon to scare someone off, as they probably ARE armed and not afraid to use it. Do due diligence and you won't be surprised when you do make the move. Good Luck to you...
Ah, OK, I see what you meant by "alternatives." No, I was fully interested in a waterless solar incinerating toilet system but the expense didn't make sense if I needed more than a conventional septic system. (That was one of my "screaming" moments, LOL, because I wanted to do the right thing as far as conservation and the codes made it counterintuitive.)
But, yeah, Debbie is the one I spoke with in the On Site Dept. I haven't done the perc test yet but I've prepared for the worst result, short of the land failing completely. (I have a remedy clause in writing should that happen but don't expect that it will.) I found a website in which you can look at the permits issued for land in an area and I've seen around that in the land above and around me that capping fill systems were ordered or done. Debbie and I discussed my building plan and she said the type of system depends on the site eval. and perc test, of course, but with the number of bedrooms (1, and it's a loft), bathrooms (1), and water fixtures (4, including the toilet and washer hookup), the requirements will be small. I was pleasantly surprised by your cost estimates, though. I was told (not by Debbie) that a sand filter system could cost between $15,000 and $20,000, on average. Yikes.
I have NO DESIRE for future expansion. This is my little retirement place and I'm tired of having family "moving in" with me. Uh-uh, so done with that, LOL. They can visit sometimes and stay in the RV I'll still have and maintain for such purposes. But then off they go after a lovely SHORT vacation!
Riddle me this: How can the County charge an additional "square footage fee" citing "land use" on property you've bought when the County provides NO services? The person(s) who created the subdivision already paid all of THOSE fees and the folks buying the individual parcels are putting in their own septic systems, plumbing, water, and electric. As you've cited, safety services are next-to-nothing, and there is no road maintenance. The only thing that the county is doing is inspecting for codes, which is covered amply by the building permits. (And they add an extra fee onto the building permit for that, too, for inspections done in unincorporated areas.) There is no way that the County deserves an extra fee of thousands of dollars per building simply because the land happens to exist inside of its geographical boundaries UNLESS the County itself owned the land and one is simply leasing it.
If they thought about it, they would benefit by making the building process more straight-forward and simpler. Then, they would be collecting property taxes on homes/developed land year after year, have good people moving in and invariably driving the sketchy people out or underground, and bring more spending power into area businesses, not to mention more money into a REASONABLE fee structure. Doesn't that make more sense?
Regarding the "undesirables," I live in rural Texas and they're a fact of life here, too. I've always been fine, even though I used to teach in an area rife with gangs and drug cartels and once had a pimp and his "ladies" move in right down the road from me, because I mind my own business and just do my thing. (Except I did take one of ladies to a women's shelter when she came to my house after the pimp beat and raped her and she ran away after he fell asleep. )
Anyhoo, do those "undesirables" literally show up on your doorstep and threaten you, harm you, without prior contact? I'll have nothing of value that they can flip for quick, substantial cash unless they're into stealing solar panels. I have a gun and dogs, and I'm planning to get another good, territorial property dog like a German shepherd or Great Pyrenees. I mean, are these guys so bad that they terrorize and kill just for the heck of it? Even the worst gangs I've encountered -- and, remember, I've taught the kids of the drug families, the Mexican Mafia, Texas Syndicate, and a few motorcycle gangs -- operate by some sort of code and don't terrorize everyone just because they can. Understanding that code, no matter how twisted, is a part of keeping safe so I'd like to know what I'm dealing with! It's an odd balance of not showing fear but also not appearing overly fearless, which makes them think that they have something they need to prove. At least, that's been my past experience when students who were in gangs literally tried to assault me. Any insight you could provide would be appreciated!!!
Because that is going into my site plan, too. I'm torn between building closer to the road (obviously, for easier access) and "hiding" my cabin deeper into the parcel among the trees for privacy. As you probably know, my land abuts BLM acreage. Is it safer to be more visible or secluded? What would you suggest?
Oh, a big question I do have -- I'm a freelance writer and internet access is important. What do you do for that? I've seen that Charter is in the area. Do they offer broadband service at KFFE? Or is the only option something like Hughes Net or using one's cellphone plan?
I've never lived in the area you're interested in moving to, but I'm a totally self-supporting freelance writer who moved out of rural Oregon because I needed access to decent Internet. Verizon phone service just doesn't cut it, especially when you're working on deadlines. Maybe something like HughsNet will work out there, idk, but I haven't heard great things about it.
Last edited by Metlakatla; 06-14-2015 at 04:36 PM..
Oh, a big question I do have -- I'm a freelance writer and internet access is important. What do you do for that? I've seen that Charter is in the area. Do they offer broadband service at KFFE? Or is the only option something like Hughes Net or using one's cellphone plan?
I've never lived in the area you're interested in moving to, but I'm a totally self-supporting freelance writer who moved out of rural Oregon because I needed access to decent Internet. Verizon phone service just doesn't cut it, especially when you're working on deadlines. Maybe something like HughsNet will work out there, idk, but I haven't heard great things about it.
Yeah, I haven't heard great things about Hughes Net, either, but it would be less expensive than using a cell phone data plan if it's a battle of meh, lol. I mentioned Charter because they're in Dairy, which is barely a blip and closer to Bly Mountain than Bonanza is. I'm retired from both journalism and teaching. Freelance writing is something I do to keep my brain and mind occupied so it's not as if my livelihood and survival depend on it. I'm most occupied with working on my book, which won't require internet until I download the file to a publisher. I can go into Klamath Falls to do that if I can't from Bonanza.
It would be nice to have Netflix but, oh well. There's always DirecTV, I suppose.
I'm glad to read that you're making a living as a freelancer!!! All of these people who are willing to write for sites free-of-charge and just for exposure are making it difficult for writers who do quality work and rightfully expect to be paid accordingly!
I'm glad to read that you're making a living as a freelancer!!! All of these people who are willing to write for sites free-of-charge and just for exposure are making it difficult for writers who do quality work and rightfully expect to be paid accordingly!
That doesn't make it easy. But...I think it evens out. Professional publications can't stay alive on freebie writing, and those who write for free often provide a good argument for the old adage about getting what you pay for.
Good to know you don't have to depend on Internet for your work.
A county is still part of the state and can't simply do and charge whatever it feels like doing and charging to raise cash. When you build, you expect to pay reasonable and customary fees. I'm aware that there are various permits for various parts of the construction (septic, plumbing, electrical, etc.) This isn't my first rodeo as far as construction. But I'm eager to hear them justify that square-footage fee on top of everything else, with a minimum of 1,000 square feet, to boot. It doesn't sound legal. If they're trying to use "Land Use" as a catch-all to collect, good luck, because that would require proof that one is intending to use the property for purposes outside of the current zoning or, at least, for building components/systems that are atypical and could require review. But a variance fee and hearing is designed to take care of things like that when they come up.
I could totally understand assessing a *minimum* building permit fee, in addition to the septic process, for small builds such as mine to ensure that their expenses are covered. But to charge a $5,000 minimum square footage fee IN ADDITION TO all of the other fees, aside from septic? Oh, hellz no. Especially for a little 400 sq. ft. cabin with basic plumbing and electric and an EPA-certified woodstove. And especially when the county is providing nothing in terms of services to the area. Want to charge high, extra fees to build there? OK, but use some of that money to develop some water sources for the residents, then, or put in an emergency services substation nearby. Otherwise, we'll just keep our money for our own use, thanks!
Too bad I'm still recovering from surgery. I was planning to come up next month to get the site eval. done and move things along. I'd love to go up now and discuss all of this with the Building folks in person. It's so much better that way.
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).Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful place to live, but you need to be aware of all the issues that go with living here. Definitely not the place for the weak of heart or timid. And lastly YES, do carry a firearm for your own protection. Can't tell you how many times people have been threatened to be shot. Don't take my word, call the Sheriff's office and ask them about the area. It will make your head spin.
I'm surprised at the minimum permit fee. Most counties in Oregon just charge a small percentage of the project value, but in an area as sparse as Klamath County I guess they have to set a minimum just to afford inspections. 
)
