Eminent Domain in Downtown Orlando / Another "NIMBY" situation (2014, city hall)

[MrKnight]

I have seen this happen constantly in Orlando, it is one of the reasons why Orlando has historically struggled in really reaching its full potential in downtown. What do you guys think?

orlando soccer stadium church city drops eminent domain - Orlando Sentinel

The new alternate location of the stadium will not be as well positioned as the original location, all because one little church..

[annerk]

I think if the City had made a reasonable offer to begin with, it would have worked out differently. I don't believe the initial offer was reasonable, as it would have cost the church more than that to buy land and build a similar building in the same neighborhood. Moving a church isn't like moving a car dealership. If the dealership moves a few miles away, people will still come to it. Moving a church which serves a largely poor population--many of whom don't have vehicles and some of whom are homeless--more than a few blocks isn't going to work.

I think the church's position was due to being insulted by the low ball offer the City made to begin with. It got their hackles up as the city obviously didn't want to play fair and was trying to be a bully. Building the stadium a few blocks further away won't make one iota of difference to the people who will be attending the games--largely middle class with plenty of cash who will be driving to the area anyhow. They should have taken the path of least resistance to begin with and planned to build where the least number of people, businesses, and organizations would be impacted from the start.

[idr591]

Originally Posted by annerk

I think if the City had made a reasonable offer to begin with, it would have worked out differently. I don't believe the initial offer was reasonable, as it would have cost the church more than that to buy land and build a similar building in the same neighborhood. Moving a church isn't like moving a car dealership. If the dealership moves a few miles away, people will still come to it. Moving a church which serves a largely poor population--many of whom don't have vehicles and some of whom are homeless--more than a few blocks isn't going to work.

I think the church's position was due to being insulted by the low ball offer the City made to begin with. It got their hackles up as the city obviously didn't want to play fair and was trying to be a bully. Building the stadium a few blocks further away won't make one iota of difference to the people who will be attending the games--largely middle class with plenty of cash who will be driving to the area anyhow. They should have taken the path of least resistance to begin with and planned to build where the least number of people, businesses, and organizations would be impacted from the start.

I don't know; The article says they offered 1.5 million, which was twice the appraised value.

[annerk]

Originally Posted by idr591

I don't know; The article says they offered 1.5 million, which was twice the appraised value.

Appraisal only means market value of similar buildings based on sold comps. That number is artificially low in Parramore as it's not currently a desirable area. It doesn't mean that land could be purchased and a new building of similar size could be constructed, the property fenced and an asphalt driveway and parking lot poured and new fittings (draperies, pulpit, etc. procured for the appraised value. Not to mention the cost of moving things like a piano, organ, seating, appliances, etc.

Additionally it would take at least 6-8 months from the time they got the money until the new church could be finished--where do you expect the people to worship in the meantime? They would have to rent space, which would be yet another cost.

Eminent domain should make the person/organization whole. That was not being done in this situation.

[annerk]

One other thing--they were trying to take property from a private entity to benefit another private entity. This was not a case of a road or City Hall or even a library. This was only to build a building that would house a private entity for the benefit of that entity. I don't see it passing the test set my the Kilo vs. City of New London case back in 2006. I don't see the Florida Legislature voting to allow condemnation and eminent domain, and the City of Orlando wasted taxpayer money fighting them to begin with.

[MrKnight]

Originally Posted by annerk

Appraisal only means market value of similar buildings based on sold comps. That number is artificially low in Parramore as it's not currently a desirable area. It doesn't mean that land could be purchased and a new building of similar size could be constructed, the property fenced and an asphalt driveway and parking lot poured and new fittings (draperies, pulpit, etc. procured for the appraised value. Not to mention the cost of moving things like a piano, organ, seating, appliances, etc.

Additionally it would take at least 6-8 months from the time they got the money until the new church could be finished--where do you expect the people to worship in the meantime? They would have to rent space, which would be yet another cost.

Eminent domain should make the person/organization whole. That was not being done in this situation.

There was a counter-offer by the city of $4 million which is WAY above property value and the church also declined that offer, $4 million is more than enough for a church of that size to relocate, it simply came down to the church trying to make a political statement. Next they will complain when the stadium gets built next door and their entranceway is blocked with crowds of soccer fans and full parking lots in all directons, then they will probably think "maybe we SHOULD have taken that offer from the city, now its too late" ..

[annerk]

Originally Posted by MrKnight

There was a counter-offer by the city of $4 million which is WAY above property value and the church also declined that offer, $4 million is more than enough for a church of that size to relocate, it simply came down to the church trying to make a political statement. Next they will complain when the stadium gets built next door and their entranceway is blocked with crowds of soccer fans and full parking lots in all directons, then they will probably think "maybe we SHOULD have taken that offer from the city, now its too late" ..

That counter offer was only after the City realized they weren't going to win. The church by that time knew they were, and were playing a cat and mouse game. The city was stupid in wasting tax dollars to pursue a matter that under Florida state law and with Federal case law behind them that they couldn't win.

I think the church will probably make a fortune charging people $10 a car to park in their lot. It looks like they have room for about 75 cars--even paying someone $10 an hour to collect parking fees, they'll still end up making some nice coin at each game. Considering their ministries assist the poor and impoverished a hella lot more than the City of Orlando does, good for them.

[idr591]

Originally Posted by annerk

That counter offer was only after the City realized they weren't going to win. The church by that time knew they were, and were playing a cat and mouse game. The city was stupid in wasting tax dollars to pursue a matter that under Florida state law and with Federal case law behind them that they couldn't win.

I think the church will probably make a fortune charging people $10 a car to park in their lot. It looks like they have room for about 75 cars--even paying someone $10 an hour to collect parking fees, they'll still end up making some nice coin at each game. Considering their ministries assist the poor and impoverished a hella lot more than the City of Orlando does, good for them.

I would argue they didn't win. Taking the 4M would have been winning. Now they are stuck directly between two major event venues.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by MrKnight

I have seen this happen constantly in Orlando, it is one of the reasons why Orlando has historically struggled in really reaching its full potential in downtown. What do you guys think?

orlando soccer stadium church city drops eminent domain - Orlando Sentinel

The new alternate location of the stadium will not be as well positioned as the original location, all because one little church..

The City of Orlando should probably try to get over it's "little man" complex and pay off old debts in terms of sporting venues (Amway Center fiasco) before attempting to build new debt and invoke imminent domain. Why in the heck are they building something brand new when their are already two existing underused facilities that would have been suitable for use with just minor renovations necessary?

[annerk]

Originally Posted by idr591

I would argue they didn't win. Taking the 4M would have been winning. Now they are stuck directly between two major event venues.

They have a large parking lot and might see that as winning.