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This article also sums up the real fear that this train station may not have any trains for years.
I reading that article, 2020 will be here before we know it. Time always flys. I wonder if Lakeland will get a Brightline stop if they eventually reach Tampa Bay from MCO.
If you want mass transit you can take Megabus or Greyhound to Atlanta.
The US is just built different from European nations, often because of the vast size of this country and the prevalence of the automobile when we came into our own.
Better public transportation and transit options should be a priority in the United States, but Florida is a very poor candidate for them. You cannot built underground systems here, and our cities (while easy to connect) are not walking friendly.
A. Megabus and Greyhound are NOT "mass transit" they are also private transportation services just like Brightline and no they are not funded nor supported by the government in any way or form.
B. How can you even compare a BUS to a modern high speed train system? Have you ever even experienced a high speed train? Do you even understand the significance of this and the fact that it is actually a GREAT thing for our state and will have a positive impact on MULTIPLE metro areas??
C. You are contracting yourself by saying that better transportation systems should be a priority in the US but yet somehow you oppose Brightline which is an IMPROVEMENT to our transportation system?? And why would Florida not be a good candidate? That makes no sense, Florida is one of the fastest growing states in the country, the demand for these type of services are extremely high, Floridians have been asking for this for DECADES... Your point makes no sense..
A. Megabus and Greyhound are NOT "mass transit" they are also private transportation services just like Brightline and no they are not funded nor supported by the government in any way or form.
B. How can you even compare a BUS to a modern high speed train system? Have you ever even experienced a high speed train? Do you even understand the significance of this and the fact that it is actually a GREAT thing for our state and will have a positive impact on MULTIPLE metro areas??
C. You are contracting yourself by saying that better transportation systems should be a priority in the US but yet somehow you oppose Brightline which is an IMPROVEMENT to our transportation system?? And why would Florida not be a good candidate? That makes no sense, Florida is one of the fastest growing states in the country, the demand for these type of services are extremely high, Floridians have been asking for this for DECADES... Your point makes no sense..
A. Buses are Mass Transit systems, they're moving multiple people in a single modal transport. Greyhound and Megabus are private companies- I never denied that.
B. America does not have modern high speed train systems- and Brightline is not a modern high speed train system. It would be great if I could get from Orlando to Miami in 90 minutes. China, Spain, Italy, France- all have trains which move at 200mph+. Brightline will average 79 mph and won't even connect Orlando City Center.
C. If the demand is high, Brightline will be successful. If it isn't, who will pay off the losses? Who is paying for the Intermodal Terminal? Government claimed SunRail would be successful. It isn't. No one knows how it is going to stay afloat when the state stops covering the bills. Money better spent elsewhere.
How many privately owned passenger rails exist in the US. Right now, just one. Brightline. Each indivudal one has gone out of business.
How many government passenger rails turn profit in the US. Just one. The Acela which goes from Boston to NY to Philly to Washington.
Do you really think Brightline can compete?
Orlando is the result of poor urban planning. That's difficult to fix and requires expensive infrastructure. Not band-aid infrastructure that we are getting.
Florida is a bad candidate because our cities were not built for walkability and out state has no tax model to sustain growth like this-.
B. America does not have modern high speed train systems- and Brightline is not a modern high speed train system. It would be great if I could get from Orlando to Miami in 90 minutes. China, Spain, Italy, France- all have trains which move at 200mph+. Brightline will average 79 mph and won't even connect Orlando City Center.
Brightline trains will actually travel up to 125 mph between WPB and Orlando, this is the highly anticipated "higher-speed" segment in which the trains will actually be able to travel at their max speed. The 79 mph that you are referring to is actually the current speed between WPB and Miami due to safety limitations of traveling through a high density metro area, to say that this is the "average speed" is a false statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
C. If the demand is high, Brightline will be successful. If it isn't, who will pay off the losses? Who is paying for the Intermodal Terminal? Government claimed SunRail would be successful. It isn't. No one knows how it is going to stay afloat when the state stops covering the bills. Money better spent elsewhere.
How many privately owned passenger rails exist in the US. Right now, just one. Brightline. Each indivudal one has gone out of business.
How many government passenger rails turn profit in the US. Just one. The Acela which goes from Boston to NY to Philly to Washington.
SunRail and Brightline are apples to oranges, they cannot even be compared, one is a publicly funded/operated commuter train that services ONE metro area and the other is a privately funded/operated high speed inter-city rail service that serves MULTIPLE metro areas, once again apples to oranges.
The Intermodal Terminal at MCO was built as an a airport expansion facility and hub for MULTIPLE transportation services including bus connections, rail connections, and eventually an entirely new airport terminal that will connect directly to it, it wasn't solely built to serve one purpose so once again your argument does not make any sense. The fact that it will also serve as a Brightline station is simply a BONUS, PLUS; Brightline is actually PAYING MCO to lease the right of way to build the rail tracks that will connect to the terminal.. Not sure how this could possibly be a bad thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
Do you really think Brightline can compete?
Once again your speculation has already been proven wrong:
Orlando is the result of poor urban planning. That's difficult to fix and requires expensive infrastructure. Not band-aid infrastructure that we are getting.
Florida is a bad candidate because our cities were not built for walkability and out state has no tax model to sustain growth like this-.
Yes the poor urban planning is a real issue, so what do you propose be done? NOTHING? For the first time in the history of our state SIGNIFICANT steps are being taken towards at least TRYING to improve our infrastructure; SunRail, Brightline, airport expansions, road expansions, I-4, etc... How are these bad things???
Brightline trains will actually travel up to 125 mph between WPB and Orlando, this is the highly anticipated "higher-speed" segment in which the trains will actually be able to travel at their max speed. The 79 mph that you are referring to is actually the current speed between WPB and Miami due to safety limitations of traveling through a high density metro area, to say that this is the "average speed" is a false statement.
SunRail and Brightline are apples to oranges, they cannot even be compared, one is a publicly funded/operated commuter train that services ONE metro area and the other is a privately funded/operated high speed inter-city rail service that serves MULTIPLE metro areas, once again apples to oranges.
The Intermodal Terminal at MCO was built as an a airport expansion facility and hub for MULTIPLE transportation services including bus connections, rail connections, and eventually an entirely new airport terminal that will connect directly to it, it wasn't solely built to serve one purpose so once again your argument does not make any sense. The fact that it will also serve as a Brightline station is simply a BONUS, PLUS; Brightline is actually PAYING MCO to lease the right of way to build the rail tracks that will connect to the terminal.. Not sure how this could possibly be a bad thing?
Once again your speculation has already been proven wrong:
Yes the poor urban planning is a real issue, so what do you propose be done? NOTHING? For the first time in the history of our state SIGNIFICANT steps are being taken towards at least TRYING to improve our infrastructure; SunRail, Brightline, airport expansions, road expansions, I-4, etc... How are these bad things???
Brightline has claimed the Orlando to Miami trip will be completed in 3.5 hours. That does not align with 125 miles per hour. UP to, yes. But following their timetable you are looking at an average of 70-80 mph.
As far as paying MCO and Orlando Airports for the tracks, that would be a quality business venture. If Brightline can afford to stay afloat making the WPB to Orlando Run. The profit Brightline will make is from the real estate ventures in South Florida. I propose the run to Orlando is a ruse. It is an attempt to take out tax exempt bonds, start a service, and then fail to deliver. If Brightline cannot pack 1,000 people each day on each train- the service will operate at a loss. Long term losses mean the Railroad portion may go under, who loses on the bonds? Ultimately if they are government backed and untaxed, every taxpayer will make up for the shortfall- investors would be hit the hardest.
As for any of my own proposals. I'd aim for viable ones.
The Brightline, to be successful, needs to be faster than a car.
Who is the business model supposed to disrupt? Drivers... same speed. Air Travel... Brightline will be more expensive to operate.
Orlando Airport isn't a great place for a terminus either. There absolutely nothing there. If SunRail ever does even make it there- you still are now adding a 30 minute ride to Lynx Central making the trip longer.
The I-4 rebuild is a necessary project, but the vast majority of its need is based on the I-4/408 Interchange. That was built POORLY. The reality with infrastructure is to not make mistakes, because they will cost you 10x in the long haul.
I've been preaching the failure of SunRail for 5+ years now and all my predictions were pretty spot on.
I'll repost my proposed transit light rail that would benefit Orlando significantly.
For this to be achieved, property taxes or sales tax would have to be levied higher and fares would have to actually somewhat reflect the cost of service.
Finally, the last piece of Orlando's structural planning issue is the location of UCF. The State and City need to really decide if they want UCF in Orlando Proper- and spend the money now to make it happen before land in Callahan and Parramore becomes too expensive or protected. One building downtown shared with Valencia is an interesting start... but you want to emulate strong Urban modern cities like Austin, TX or San Diego, CA- you shouldn't build your campus 15 miles East of the City.
Good luck with any of these things though. People want results without conducting feasibility studies- or in the case feasibility turns out to say "don't do this" as was the case with SunRail, people still cried for the overly generous Federal Tax dollars Obama was giving out for HSR. To date, no true HSRs have come about.
Brightline's numbers are good for a decent product it offers down south.
Two issues.
#1- Brightline still operates at a loss, tickets cannot be sold for that cheap for so long. Offering discounted/subsidized rides is a great way to increase the business and appear successful to continue getting investment. [SEE MOVIEPASS]
#2 - Brightline competes with an already existing public service. Tri-Rails numbers are down. The shortfall this brings in has to be made up statewide by FDOT.
Brightline has claimed the Orlando to Miami trip will be completed in 3.5 hours. That does not align with 125 miles per hour. UP to, yes. But following their timetable you are looking at an average of 70-80 mph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
The Brightline, to be successful, needs to be faster than a car.
Who is the business model supposed to disrupt? Drivers... same speed.
Actually, once again, you are incorrect, the travel time on Brightline between Miami and Orlando will be SIGNFICANTLY faster than driving, the projected travel time is actually a maximum of 3 hours travel time with only two quick stops (Fort Lauderdale and WPB), the travel between WPB and Orlando will be non-stop at high speeds (125 mph).
The current travel time driving is 4 hours between Miami and Orlando assuming there are no unforeseen traffic delays (which we all know happens quite frequently), toll expense, gas expense, vehicle usage, and not to mention a long, tiresome, and boring un-scenic drive on the two-lane Turnpike, no thanks..
The travel time between Miami and Orlando is literally cut by ONE HOUR plus the added perks of being on a comfortable train.. Not sure how you do not see the benefit in this..
Actually, once again, you are incorrect, the travel time on Brightline between Miami and Orlando will be SIGNFICANTLY faster than driving, the projected travel time is actually a maximum of 3 hours travel time with only two quick stops (Fort Lauderdale and WPB), the travel between WPB and Orlando will be non-stop at high speeds (125 mph).
The current travel time driving is 4 hours between Miami and Orlando assuming there are no unforeseen traffic delays (which we all know happens quite frequently), toll expense, gas expense, vehicle usage, and not to mention a long, tiresome, and boring un-scenic drive on the two-lane Turnpike, no thanks..
The travel time between Miami and Orlando is literally cut by ONE HOUR plus the added perks of being on a comfortable train.. Not sure how you do not see the benefit in this..
Heck, I sometimes take the train just to go to Tampa. The sheer level of comfort in a train compared to driving is not comparable. Also the same reason why I use the Sunrail to get to work. It's not even so much about saving time when I use it, but rather just the comfort. Make it take LESS TIME than driving (Brightline), and I'm definitely sold.
Actually, once again, you are incorrect, the travel time on Brightline between Miami and Orlando will be SIGNFICANTLY faster than driving, the projected travel time is actually a maximum of 3 hours travel time with only two quick stops (Fort Lauderdale and WPB), the travel between WPB and Orlando will be non-stop at high speeds (125 mph).
The current travel time driving is 4 hours between Miami and Orlando assuming there are no unforeseen traffic delays (which we all know happens quite frequently), toll expense, gas expense, vehicle usage, and not to mention a long, tiresome, and boring un-scenic drive on the two-lane Turnpike, no thanks..
The travel time between Miami and Orlando is literally cut by ONE HOUR plus the added perks of being on a comfortable train.. Not sure how you do not see the benefit in this..
From the moment the train door closes you may see 3 hour times from Orlando to Miami station.
The drive time, even now, 226 from Orlando Airport to Brightline MiamiCentral is 3 Hours and 29 Minutes.
Yes, traffic can SUBSTANTIALLY change this. As driving 90mph can as well.
No One. NO ONE. Is leaving their home or office and getting to Transmodal then to Miami Central in this proposed train faster than driving.
So while I appreciate you being CRITICAL of the things I say. Don't cite me as being wrong when I'm telling it as it is proposed.
"Toll Expense + Gas Expense + Vehicle Usage" = 17 + (.545 x 226) = 123 Total : $140
"Toll + Gas averages about $57
South Florida Business Journal pegs realistic costs of a ride with normal profit margin to be $143 on Brightline.
No savings there. Especially when you have 2+ riders in a vehicle.
I'm sorry the ride is boring, long, tiresome or unscenic. You're already at the airport. Why not just fly?
It's cheaper and faster.
Or... take one of the many buses. They're $45 r/t. Same deal. Stop once on the turnpike, once in Miami. They also go to the beach.
Brightline should get substantial FDOT backing. If, and only if, it can clear the trip in 2.5 hours. Right now it is doing the redundant and I can't see how it can survive without subsidies.
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Have you ever even experienced a high speed train? Do you even understand the significance of this and the fact that it is actually a GREAT thing for our state and will have a positive impact on MULTIPLE metro areas??
