U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Other Topics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-28-2007, 05:42 AM
 
19,480 posts, read 26,877,593 times
Reputation: 37965

Advertisements

and here is why we cant have an honest discussion on this topic,(above),,,always the lowest common denominator conclusion, most of us are praising someone who is pulling themselves out of welfare, thru hard work and personal commitment, someone who has a goal/plan, and is taking the high road, not the easier low road, someone that can feel much better about themselves, feeling of accomplishment, and setting a good example for others.

all the examples in the above post, is why we need to clean the fraud out of the welfare program, so those that truly need it, has it!
we arent calling people lazy leeches, we just would like to see some oversight to cut out the fraud.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-28-2007, 08:27 PM
 
2,896 posts, read 6,300,731 times
Reputation: 5036
what is sad is we are talking about welfare as though that is some big drain on our tax dollars....LOL! Hey folks want to make an impact? Let's put an end to all of the foreign aid that leaves these shores especially the untold billions that goes to countries that HATE US! I'll take a few million lazy bum US citizens any day over what flows out the back door to countries most have never heard of. Welfare monies paid out are such a small slice of the pie that it barely registers compared to all of the absurd stuff that goes on. People that are unwilling or unable for whatever reason to rise above a certain level of human accomplishment will be with us forever.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2007, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,119 posts, read 7,605,674 times
Reputation: 2065
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlesoup View Post
You can't eliminate a class of people. There will always be poor people. The efforts to eliminate poverty are good for those individuals who want to make their lives better, but poverty, itself, will not go anywhere.
That is probably true, but it might be possible to greatly reduce poverty and to limit it to people who cannot physically work and/or who are mentally incapacitated. I suppose that when you consider the reality of IQ distributions and people's having low IQs, some people will always end up being poor. However, I'd like to think that it's possible for able-bodied people with at least somewhat below-average intelligence to be able to find decent lower-middle class jobs and not be poor and also for poverty to not be as awful as it is today. I'm sure that it would be better to be poor in an otherwise wealthy society than to be poor in an impoverished society.

What I have in mind is a society where the predominant philosophy is one of reason, rationality, and personal responsibility as opposed to the idiot culture we have today. What if the poor acted the way people with above average intelligence acted? What if people stopped committing violent crimes (crime is not metaphysical, it's man-made)? What if people chose to act rationally?

In other words, it's possible to contemplate a completely different culture that would also be metaphysically possilble. I suspect that there are some other cultures that are closer to what I suggested, such as Japan and some of the Scandinavian countries. With rationality and better philosophy comes less poverty and a higher standard of living.

We might not be able to completely eliminate poverty, but we should strive for less poverty and "better" poverty.

Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 03-28-2007 at 09:15 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2007, 09:21 PM
 
35 posts, read 200,452 times
Reputation: 73
Thank you Da Jammer,

For pointing out that welfare dollars are not as big a drain on tax dollars as people think they are. For example, I get $568 a month for my son and me, and less than $200 a month for food stamps. I have calculated the cash aid, and the sad fact is that I could make more money working at McDonald's than I get from public assistance! But I would rather struggle a little to get through school so that I can get a much better job. Even a paycheck from McDonald's can only go so far. That's a teenager's salary.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2007, 09:36 PM
 
2,896 posts, read 6,300,731 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invisible View Post
Thank you Da Jammer,

For pointing out that welfare dollars are not as big a drain on tax dollars as people think they are. For example, I get $568 a month for my son and me, and less than $200 a month for food stamps. I have calculated the cash aid, and the sad fact is that I could make more money working at McDonald's than I get from public assistance! But I would rather struggle a little to get through school so that I can get a much better job. Even a paycheck from McDonald's can only go so far. That's a teenager's salary.
Well thank you for pointing out how I kinda sorta stuck my foot in my mouth. The "lazy bums" comment was really meant to reflect how the vast majority of people in this country feel about U.S. citizens that seek aid from their countrymen in a time of need. It was a regrettable remark, and I do apologize to folks like yourself that truly do need a helping hand. The very best to you and your family through these tough times and I am looking forward to hearing about one heckuva success story from you here some day.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2007, 03:28 PM
 
33 posts, read 129,499 times
Reputation: 26
As someone who has been on welfare, I don't know that there is an easy solution. The unfortunate thing that I found was that the jobs that you are qualified to do pay minimum wage or barely above minimum wage and provided no benefits (health coverage). The housing costs steadily increase, cost of childcare is insane (by the way, these two items alone cost more than $1,000 per month). The public transportation systems in most cities will get you to the downtown areas and around the immediate outskirts when ironically most companies are relocating to the suburbs. They give you training for jobs, but when you go to apply for these jobs, the people don't want to hire you because you look...poor. Then there's college. I cannot count the number of college graduates that I know who have put themselves through college with loans only to get out and get jobs that now pay them just enough to maintain and pay back those loans, so many of those graduates are working two jobs when they have children. The unfortunate thing about some if not many minorities is that they are probably doing better than their parents at this point and cannot rely on parents to provide them with a place to live or extra money to make ends meet. I am blessed to no longer be on welfare, but it isn't quite as easy as some here make it sound. It really does say something that the income for middle management has increased by percentages in the hundreds, while minimum wage hasn't been raised in years. The cost of housing in most places where there are jobs is disproportionately high. We allow credit card companies to impose fees of 30% on credit cards that many people just need to meet basic needs at this point. Few jobs give cost of living raises, the cost of colleges is skyrocketing while the requirements to get into these colleges is becoming more and more unattainable to the average student who is the product of the "education system" that seems to be failing on almost every level as we spend $8 million (or is it billion) per week at war. I'd say as long as the priorities or our government are as out of whack as they are...people are teetering between welfare and homelessness.

This is not to say that there aren't the abusers...there will always be that. It is interesting to note that there is a higher percentage of "whites" on welfare than minorities (at least that was the case when I was on it), so it is unfair for us to assume that all welfare recipients are minorities. Likewise, there are plenty of divorced single moms on welfare...in fact, this is becoming far more common. Maybe the solution to welfare is simply for men to own up to their responsibilities to their children or be castrated! It seems that many men feel if they are no longer with the woman, then that relieves them of all accountability to the children...and we as a society seem to support this with our laxed enforcement of child-support laws.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2007, 05:48 AM
 
19,480 posts, read 26,877,593 times
Reputation: 37965
Maybe the solution to welfare is simply for men to own up to their responsibilities to their children or be castrated! It seems that many men feel if they are no longer with the woman, then that relieves them of all accountability to the children...


excellent point, baygirl (above) i agree, many sperm donors run and hide,despicable!, however, it is a two way street on a couple fronts, ,,,yes some guys are pigs, and will screw any girl, without thinking of any consequences, but, the girl/woman has to take some reponsibility here too,,,,she's got to be particular and have some morals,,,,for who she spreads her legs to. because she does know the consequences.
also ,one other point (while im making friends), while on one hand, yes many guys are dickweeds and shirk thier responsibilities, if a woman gets pregnant, but on the other hand, does he have a say, to whether she has the baby??
absolutely not! and yes thier are decent men in this world, who wanted to be a responsible father, but the baby was aborted. and im sure more men who would probably preferred the woman have an abortion but didnt.
so, much more responsibilities rest on the head of the female, she will ultimately , care for the child, and this in itself, is why she HAS to be a bit more responsible, in who she mates with.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2007, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,119 posts, read 7,605,674 times
Reputation: 2065
Quote:
Originally Posted by baygirl View Post
Maybe the solution to welfare is simply for men to own up to their responsibilities to their children or be castrated!
Government-funded vasectomies for poor men wouldn't hurt or for anyone in general, for that matter.

However, why are you blaming the men for all of this? After all, isn't it women who REALLY have the choice about whether or not a child will be born? It's not like a man can walk take morning-after pills or use RU-486 or get an abortion or single-handedly put his unwanted infant up for adoption. Heck, men can't even obtain "paper abortions" in this country (forcing women to be responsible for their choices).

Perhaps if women bore fewer children they couldn't afford to raise and had fewer children in situations where they know the father does not want the children this wouldn't be as much of a problem.

What do you think of the idea of "paper abortions for men"? It would work like this. Early in the pregnancy if the biological father does not want to be a father he puts up money to pay all of the costs for an abortion and in exchange he surrenders all legal rights and responsibilities to the potential infant. If the woman still wants to have the infant knowing that she will bare 100% of the responsibilities, then it is her choice to do so, but she cannot at any time ever obtain court-ordered child support from the biological father.

Allowing men to have "paper abortions" would force women to accept responsibility for their choices (such as not using morning after pills, RU-486, abortion, or adoption).

Of course, in today's climate where abortion itself is only barely legal, almost no one has even contemplated the notion of "paper abortions for men" which, politically, is completely out of the question right now.

Quote:
It seems that many men feel if they are no longer with the woman, then that relieves them of all accountability to the children...and we as a society seem to support this with our laxed enforcement of child-support laws.
Right. Many men don't want children and get angry at women when the women force the children on them instead of opting to take responsibility for their choices and either raise the children on their own or have an abortion.

Of course, women will completely oppose the notion of "paper abortions for men". Women are happy when they are "more equal" than men and have more freedoms and options. Women believe that choice for themselves is good, but not for men. For a woman in today's American society, the paradigm is "Her body, her choice" whereas for a male it's "His body, no choice". Thus, women don't protest the nation's having an all-male draft nor do they protest male genital mutilation (circumcision). Women are happy to have the choice to have an abortion--the choice of whether or not to use a form of birth control--but they don't want the responsibilities of that choice and would prefer to force men to suffer from their choices.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2007, 08:17 AM
 
140 posts, read 513,222 times
Reputation: 95
I hear your concern for men, Bhaalspawn, but the choices we as women have today are in place BECAUSE many men didn't want to take responsibility for the children they helped produce. Why are there so many forms of birth control for women and very few for men? Yes, women do have a responsibility to unborn children, but so do men. It takes two to tango. If men don't want kids, they should wear condoms instead of making excuses not to wear them: "I'm allergic to Latex", "I can't feel anything with these things on", "I don't think I can have kids anyway". Those were the excuses I heard. And to be honest, I did research on birth control and none of the options seemed safe enough for me. Given all the side effects that often accompany certain types of birth control, I decided that I didn't want anything to go wrong with my first pregnancy. So I took a chance. I never lied to my son's father about taking birth control. He knew there was risk involved. We are apart now, but we have a very beautiful little boy between us. And he does pay child support. I know there are women out there who trick men into caring for kids they did not want, and that gives the rest of us a bad name. I know you don't want to hear this, but there are many men out there who tell women they love them just so they don't have to wear a condom during sex. And many women who get pregnant are young girls in controlling relationships with much older men who should know better. So it goes both ways. Both parties must be responsible for the child. We made our beds so we must lie in them like adults and take care of our responsibilities. The children are not to blame for their parents' mistakes. By the way, having my son was the best thing that's ever happened to me. I believe being emotionally ready for a child is much more important than being financially ready for them.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2007, 02:41 PM
 
Location: SC
585 posts, read 584,771 times
Reputation: 1386
I remember hearing at a young age that "Rules are made to be broken". And they are. There will always be some who will abuse and use the system. No matter what you are talking about. Another saying I like "Locks are made to keep the honest man out".

Although, as the honest man, we hope we are doing the right thing when we vote, none of us really know if that person is one of us. I fear that we may never see the light on several issues until we our selves are standing before the man himself! Limits can be set as can and are rules, but there again, someone will break them.

All we can do is put the pressure on with all of our elected officials. Change happens quicker by number!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Other Topics

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top