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Spanking can have its place the only problem comes in when parents ONLY use spanking. The same goes for time outs. They are sometimes appropriate. Other times parents need to use something different. The key is to THINK about discipline and not just react. People act as if they have two choices:
1. spank
2. use time out.
There are a myriad of choices out there.
Yes, I am starting to realize this. Since I come from a household where spanking and ignoring were the only solutions to discipline, it seems natural for me to be extremely against it because I have to live with the results. It is very difficult to undo this and very easy to fall into step doing those methods with my own child. Basically, I have to redo my way of thinking and reactions to other people.
The most difficult part is finding out how I can do that when my presumptions are questionable at best. This is why I had to learn how to discern people who offer constructive and instructive advice from those who when they can't help me or find my questions annoying, decide it is best to insult me instead. They should just ignore me.
I did wonder why some people who were raised being spanked possessed the characteristics that many of us want for ourselves and for our kids. I don't know why I took a hard stance against it but I do know that it won't be my first, second choice. Perhaps a third choice but I am hoping not to go there. I guess I saw it in the only two ways that you pointed out.
I do want to defend people who take a hard stance against these things. It is very possible that they were raised in conditions were almost everything they did was stifled. Their brain is wired differently, their thinking is different as a result, but when they want to do something more positive for their kids, they turn to alternative parenting.
The problem is that they were raised to listen to their parents. When they became older, some realized they didn't have to listen to their parents and just started listening to somebody else.
They were never taught how to think for themselves or scrutinize assertions. One way, IMO, to let my child practice this is to allow her to question some of my actions. I DOESN't mean she will get her way but she will have an opportunity to speak.
It is very easy for people like me to blindly listen to researchers or experts. It is tough, but I am getting there and I will not be discouraged by people who insult me and tell me that nobody cares about the questions I ask. Of course, I don't mean you, Momma_bear.
Spanking can have its place the only problem comes in when parents ONLY use spanking. The same goes for time outs. They are sometimes appropriate. Other times parents need to use something different. The key is to THINK about discipline and not just react. People act as if they have two choices:
1. spank
2. use time out.
There are a myriad of choices out there.
Very true. Each child is different also. For some all it takes is a slight whack to the rear end to get some respect but there are those defiant children who will look at you and say "That didn't hurt" and challenge the parent to hit them harder - with those kids it might be better to use another approach.
The worst thing to me are the yellers. They'll scream until they're blue in the face, constant shouting but they refuse to spank. The kids are terrible to be around, and no amount of shouting brings them back into line. I think the kids with the yelling parents have it the worst because the parents have no control and the noise levels in those homes is absurd with kids shouting back at parents, screaming back and the parents screeching at the kids non-stop.
This does NOT work especially for children who are preschoolers, but even for older kids. For the most part when you place a child in his room, s/he is unlikely to be thinking about what s/he has done. Sometimes, s/he is resentful of the punishment. At other times, s/he is thinking her own thoughts about other things. There is no way to control someone's thoughts.
Also, forcing someone to apologize gets you insincerity and creates lots of problems. Better to allow the apology to happen on its own when the child realizes that s/he needs to apologize (and *if* you are successfully teaching empathy, believe me the child will *get* it).
I don't believe in forced or coerced apologies.
I've seen that where a child is socially shunned and sent to the room and cannot come out until they apologize but to me that just creates manipulative children who will lie and say what they don't mean.
Sometimes they aren't at all sorry for smacking their brother. A spanking tells them don't do it period.
Very true. Each child is different also. For some all it takes is a slight whack to the rear end to get some respect but there are those defiant children who will look at you and say "That didn't hurt" and challenge the parent to hit them harder - with those kids it might be better to use another approach.
The worst thing to me are the yellers. They'll scream until they're blue in the face, constant shouting but they refuse to spank. The kids are terrible to be around, and no amount of shouting brings them back into line. I think the kids with the yelling parents have it the worst because the parents have no control and the noise levels in those homes is absurd with kids shouting back at parents, screaming back and the parents screeching at the kids non-stop.
IMO yelling does not really impose discipline. If the only consequence for misbehavior is being yelled at then kids will do as they please, endure the tirade, then continue on their business. PLUS-they don't ever listen to their parents unless they are yelling. There has to be a real consequence in order for discipline to be effective. You have to DO SOMETHING not just yell in order to have an effect on your children.
I have to admit that my kids have gotten my angry enough on occasion that I have launched into a tirade. Luckily, that does not happen all that often.
Very true. Each child is different also. For some all it takes is a slight whack to the rear end to get some respect but there are those defiant children who will look at you and say "That didn't hurt" and challenge the parent to hit them harder - with those kids it might be better to use another approach.
A smack was all it took for me when I was little but THEN when I became a teenager it didn't work. Now I see that the problem was that my guardians should have changed strategies instead of doing more of the same but with more bite.
Even amongst people who practice Positive Discipline, they have to use different approaches for each child. They do not use punishment like time-out or spanking but don't get me wrong, these parents know how to discipline.
Example:
Show up for breakfast at 8:30 and dressed in school clothes. Show up for breakfast at 8:35, sorry, you missed breakfast. Make yourself a snack so you can last until lunch time . Most importantly, don't break your own rules.
What I try to do is discipline her at home like I would in front of other people. I just don't like saying, wait till you get home because until then, they can behave however and know you wont do anything.
It reminds me of a time when we were going to the beach and our driver hit a caution sign. He was freaking out about his dad beating him and wanted to go back home. I said, no, you are already in trouble, might as well go have fun, stay up past our curfew and then get the beating later.
A toddler who has just begun to communicate verbally is not capable of expressing how they are feeling. Too many words are confusing to them. They might shake their heads up and down because that is what is expected of them, but children two, three and four years old just aren't capable of solving feelings and actions by words that mean nothing to them.
Say your child doesn't start talking until two. At two they have tantrums. How can you expect that child to understand how to learn to control their behavior by talking to them and trying to reason with someone who does not have the capability of reason?
A quick swat on the bottom tells them clearly that what they are doing is wrong and it doesn't take any words that they may, or most likely won't understand.
In another thread you argued that even small children can be manipulative. I don't disagree but that means they have a fundamental understanding and ability to reason. Otherwise, how does one manipulate? Your belief that young children are not capable of processing or understanding their feelings/actions or reasoning but they are able to be manipulative is contradictory.
But, lets go with what you said in this thread.
Perhaps your children were not capable at 2, 3 and 4 years old but mine certainly were. If all I did was smack them until they were 5 years old, I can imagine they'd have been terrible children and probably quite resentful to this day. It sounds like abuse, IMO.
The ability to reason does not magically happen at age 5, it is developed over time. Like a muscle, it does not develop properly unless it is used. If you wait until the child is 5 years old to teach them to reason, to teach them about feelings and actions, to control their own behavior and manage their emotions....you've missed the boat. Of course it isn't all accomplished at age 5 either....it is a work of many years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
All kids need choices. One of the best ways I used when my kids were little was to give two or three acceptable choices.
For example, when you want a child to come inside and you know s/he is really enjoying being outside, you can say *do you want to go inside to play with your playdough or to build with legos.* This most often gets the child focused on the pleasurable activity s/he can do inside and will avert the *I don't want to go inside* or a tantrum because s/he wants to stay outside and play.
Another example is giving the child a choice of drinks for lunch. It is really important for children to learn *how* to make choices between various things and giving them a couple of choices that you are *ok* with helps them learn this.
The danger with this is that there isn't always a choice to be had. Sometimes we do things we don't want to do and there isn't a better option. We don't have a choice about brushing our teeth or taking a bath or cleaning up our toys. The solution to hearing "I don't want to....." never resulted in the offering a choice, I simply told the children that I didn't ask them what they wanted. Sometimes it's like that and children need to accept it. That's not to say we never offered them a choice on anything....but I wasn't going to be a slave to an endless list of options in an effort to entice the children to compliance.
The danger with this is that there isn't always a choice to be had. Sometimes we do things we don't want to do and there isn't a better option. We don't have a choice about brushing our teeth or taking a bath or cleaning up our toys. The solution to hearing "I don't want to....." never resulted in the offering a choice, I simply told the children that I didn't ask them what they wanted. Sometimes it's like that and children need to accept it. That's not to say we never offered them a choice on anything....but I wasn't going to be a slave to an endless list of options in an effort to entice the children to compliance.
I have asked about this in some alternative parenting circles. The examples they gave me were, get dressed or I dress you, take a bath or I bath you. Not sure if that will work with my LO but worth a shot. Actually, I do use this when I tell my daughter "come here or I bring you here." Funny thing, she comes. LOL!
I know that one of my teachers told me "walk on the line or I will hold your hand." She followed through and if some kids thought they would be cute and take the second choice, she would add "I will hold your hand to silent table."
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The worst thing to me are the yellers. They'll scream until they're blue in the face, constant shouting but they refuse to spank. The kids are terrible to be around, and no amount of shouting brings them back into line. I think the kids with the yelling parents have it the worst because the parents have no control and the noise levels in those homes is absurd with kids shouting back at parents, screaming back and the parents screeching at the kids non-stop.
I had an aunt who was a yeller. I recall staying at her house and just feeling so hopeless, useless just a crap kid.
The yelling kills self esteme more than a whack on the backside does. In my view.
The danger with this is that there isn't always a choice to be had. Sometimes we do things we don't want to do and there isn't a better option. We don't have a choice about brushing our teeth or taking a bath or cleaning up our toys. The solution to hearing "I don't want to....." never resulted in the offering a choice, I simply told the children that I didn't ask them what they wanted. Sometimes it's like that and children need to accept it. That's not to say we never offered them a choice on anything....but I wasn't going to be a slave to an endless list of options in an effort to entice the children to compliance.
I am not saying that you *always* offer choices at all. Of course there are things that kids *must* do as in your examples. Believe it or not though, offering choices when you can results in children who accept the times when you don't give them choices.
Also in situations like brushing teeth or taking a bath, you can still give them choices like *do you want to use this toothbrush or that one.* Of course, you don't always have the time, but when you do, it works well.
I have asked about this in some alternative parenting circles. The examples they gave me were, get dressed or I dress you, take a bath or I bath you. Not sure if that will work with my LO but worth a shot. Actually, I do use this when I tell my daughter "come here or I bring you here." Funny thing, she comes. LOL!
I know that one of my teachers told me "walk on the line or I will hold your hand." She followed through and if some kids thought they would be cute and take the second choice, she would add "I will hold your hand to silent table."
Exactly. Those are still choices. The child is choosing to comply on their own or to have the adult do some of the work. Usually, like your daughter, the child decides they would rather do the task themselves.
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choice but I am hoping not to go there. I guess I saw it in the only two ways that you pointed out.
