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The root of the word 'discipline' is teaching, not punishment. Punishment is one part of discipline, but it should never be the whole thing. There should also be positive teaching and reinforcement. Kids who are continually punished with nothing positive will usually continue to act up no matter how much you punish them.
I went through a negative period with my parents when I was getting no positive vibe from them and a lot of punishment. It didn't improve my behavior.
I also found in school that any punishment was less effective each successive time it was used. My high school did not use physical punishment, but they required us to stay for detention if we got into trouble, and it was pretty easy for this to happen since they had a lot of rules. The first couple of times, it was a big deal, but after that, we used to snicker and laugh at it, and it didn't really bother me all that much except for the inconvenience it caused if I had planned to be somewhere else.
Still, punishment is sometimes necessary. It's about getting the right balance and also having positive teaching when the opportunity presents itself.
I went to high school (which in my country of origin is 8th to 12th grade) in the late 70's early 80's and they still used the cane there at that time. However, there were very few kids that received this punishment and they always seemed to be the one's at the principal's office getting into trouble - it had little to no positive effect as far as I can ascertain. They didn't change their wayward ways one bit as a result, and I am going to guess that the humiliation of it all turned them into adults that had even less respect for authority than they had when they were high school students.
I think the pervading wisdom of the time was "if you get the cane for doing X then you won't do X again." Yeah - well, not really how it worked. The kids in question would just come out of the office more belligerent, disrespectful and defiant than they were before they went in. It certainly didn't stop the repeat offenders, and to some it was actually a badge of honor.
I went to high school (which in my country of origin is 8th to 12th grade) in the late 70's early 80's and they still used the cane there at that time. However, there were very few kids that received this punishment and they always seemed to be the one's at the principal's office getting into trouble - it had little to no positive effect as far as I can ascertain. They didn't change their wayward ways one bit as a result, and I am going to guess that the humiliation of it all turned them into adults that had even less respect for authority than they had when they were high school students.
I think the pervading wisdom of the time was "if you get the cane for doing X then you won't do X again." Yeah - well, not really how it worked. The kids in question would just come out of the office more belligerent, disrespectful and defiant than they were before they went in. It certainly didn't stop the repeat offenders, and to some it was actually a badge of honor.
I would offer then, in those instances where it was a "badge of honor" - the following:
You can't fix stupid. They would've become adults with less respect for authority, no matter which method of discipline was used. Some kids are just plain dead-set on growing up into trashy, classless, criminal adults. Rather than waste months of taxpayer money sending them to therapy when they're kids, only to have them grow up to do exactly the same thing anyway, best to save time, energy, and money, give the kid a whack on the butt, and send them back to continue their life of pointlessness.
I would offer then, in those instances where it was a "badge of honor" - the following:
You can't fix stupid. They would've become adults with less respect for authority, no matter which method of discipline was used. Some kids are just plain dead-set on growing up into trashy, classless, criminal adults. Rather than waste months of taxpayer money sending them to therapy when they're kids, only to have them grow up to do exactly the same thing anyway, best to save time, energy, and money, give the kid a whack on the butt, and send them back to continue their life of pointlessness.
Well yes, that was entirely my point. Except to add that handing out corporal punishment in that situation was not only useless, in my actual experience it only made matters worse, and was certainly not a deterrent. So my point was, what's the point?
As for therapy, I entirely agree - I don't think there even was such a thing as therapy for kids back then. However, I wasn't talking about a whack on the butt. I was talking about 6 strokes of a heavy cane across the hand - it left a definite mark and was extremely painful - yet it had no effect on it's recipients, except to make them act tougher than they already did.
I'm sorry but what in the world would possess a person to LET themselves be hit.
I get the concept of spanking. I don't get why people would actually follow through with it and I don't know why anyone would just LET themselves be repeatedly hit.
If any one tried to do that to me, I wouldn't let it happen.
I would either remove myself from the situation after stating I was not going to just allow myself to be hit or I would fight back if they tried to hold me down.
I'm sorry but being hit doesn't fly with me.
Maybe its from my childhood but if someone wants to lay a hand on me to hurt me in anyway....they have another thing coming, like the giant can of whoopass on sale buy one get one free.
If its to where I am hit and can get away after one hit, you can bet your butt that whoever hit me will be spending the night in jail.
If I am being repeatedly hit then, I will fight back and THEN they will be going to jail.
If I had done something in high school and they told me I was going to get spanked I would pack my things up and go for the day, I wouldn't just LET them hit me.
The thought of giving someone so much control over me and my body that they have the go ahead just hit me as they please freaks me the hell out, no one should exert that much control over one person.
I went to high school (which in my country of origin is 8th to 12th grade) in the late 70's early 80's and they still used the cane there at that time. However, there were very few kids that received this punishment and they always seemed to be the one's at the principal's office getting into trouble - it had little to no positive effect as far as I can ascertain. They didn't change their wayward ways one bit as a result, and I am going to guess that the humiliation of it all turned them into adults that had even less respect for authority than they had when they were high school students.
I think the pervading wisdom of the time was "if you get the cane for doing X then you won't do X again." Yeah - well, not really how it worked. The kids in question would just come out of the office more belligerent, disrespectful and defiant than they were before they went in. It certainly didn't stop the repeat offenders, and to some it was actually a badge of honor.
The "badge of honor" thing is a defense mechanism to some extent. They didn't use physical punishment at my school, but we used to consider detention to be a badge of honor. Part of it was that the detention was held in a very high traffic area of the school, so when we were in there, it was like being in a cage at the zoo. Everybody walked by and gawked in to see who was there. Maybe the location was an attempt to make us ashamed of being there, but it really didn't work. Friends would see you there, and joke with you about it the next day. There was surely no embarrassment among most people I knew.
I think the reality is that the anticipation of punishment from the school was always far worse than the reality. That's why its effectiveness diminished with repeated use. We got to see that it wasn't that big a deal, not something to be that worried about.
Punishment will always be necessary, but it's also important to try to reach difficult kids or students in some positive way. It's not always possible, but if it can be done, it's much more effective than just repeated punishment. As a recipient of repeated punishments, I can attest to that.
The "badge of honor" thing is a defense mechanism to some extent. They didn't use physical punishment at my school, but we used to consider detention to be a badge of honor. Part of it was that the detention was held in a very high traffic area of the school, so when we were in there, it was like being in a cage at the zoo. Everybody walked by and gawked in to see who was there. Maybe the location was an attempt to make us ashamed of being there, but it really didn't work. Friends would see you there, and joke with you about it the next day. There was surely no embarrassment among most people I knew.
I think the reality is that the anticipation of punishment from the school was always far worse than the reality. That's why its effectiveness diminished with repeated use. We got to see that it wasn't that big a deal, not something to be that worried about.
Punishment will always be necessary, but it's also important to try to reach difficult kids or students in some positive way. It's not always possible, but if it can be done, it's much more effective than just repeated punishment. As a recipient of repeated punishments, I can attest to that.
Yep, I agree. While AnonChick is right that there are always going to be kids that are headed down the good old road to ruin regardless of what you do to deter them, I think there's definite kudos to be given to alternatives to try and get them headed down the right path, such as the Boy's and Girl's clubs and mentoring programs for kids without strong family guidance.
the lawyers will prevent that from ever happening. you must have voucher system to reintroduce a degree of discipline in the schooling process. i see it here so much, a charter school sets up does great and then the civil rights politicians water it down to a farce and it becomes just another ghetto school.
ACLU credo, better a 1000 future contributors to society fail than 1 gangbanger be left behind. bus em.
Yep, I agree. While AnonChick is right that there are always going to be kids that are headed down the good old road to ruin regardless of what you do to deter them, I think there's definite kudos to be given to alternatives to try and get them headed down the right path, such as the Boy's and Girl's clubs and mentoring programs for kids without strong family guidance.
All that is great, but the reality is that without a strong family structure, lots of kids are going to fall by the wayside. Supplemental programs can really help when there's a fairly small percentage of kids who are not getting the support they need at home, but when it's a strong majority (as it is in poor areas where there are few fathers in the homes), the problem is going to overwhelm the clubs and mentoring programs.
I went to a Catholic private school. Sister "Mary" slapped kids who misbehaved, right in the face. She had a look about her that could stop a freight train. Everyone went silent when she walked in the room. One boy's mom came in and let her have it, told her if she ever laid a hand on her son again, she would come in and beat her *ss. Other parents followed.
I wouldn't be happy with anyone putting their hands on my child. As I stated in another thread, there are kids who need it badly. I have come across plenty of kids I wanted to put over my knee.
One thing is for certain, the teachers and coaches may not be allowed to hit these kids, but someone will. When you don't exercise responsible parenting, they become the problem of everyone they come across. They will get their "spanking" eventually.
I went to a Catholic private school. Sister "Mary" slapped kids who misbehaved, right in the face. She had a look about her that could stop a freight train. Everyone went silent when she walked in the room. One boy's mom came in and let her have it, told her if she ever laid a hand on her son again, she would come in and beat her *ss. Other parents followed.
I wouldn't be happy with anyone putting their hands on my child. As I stated in another thread, there are kids who need it badly. I have come across plenty of kids I wanted to put over my knee.
One thing is for certain, the teachers and coaches may not be allowed to hit these kids, but someone will. When you don't exercise responsible parenting, they become the problem of everyone they come across. They will get their "spanking" eventually.
I went to Catholic school also. In my experience, nuns are like nurses -- either extremely nice, sweet and caring, or very hard, cold and mean. Little in between. And you're right - if parents don't discipline, somewhere along the line somebody else will, and it usually isn't pretty.
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