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I like this answer NJGoat, because I have been struggling with what we're going to tell our daughter when the subject comes up, and unfortunately, we're going to have to tell her something.
Personally, while I think the church is a good thing for kids within the framework of how it serves the community, and as a training ground for altruism and community service, I lean towards thinking that children (say, under the age of 13) should not be indoctrinated into any belief system at all.
I'm aware this is a wholly impractical idea that will never be instituted as long as people have faith (or the opposite), and that it's down right impossible to give a child an unbiased and open-minded education when we are all leaning towards one theological outlook or another.
If everyone had the same attitude towards this subject as you do in your last paragraph, then this really wouldn't be an issue. However, we have parents that are so set in their beliefs (on both sides of the fence) that they will pound them into their children without any regard for the effect it may be having on them or society as a whole.
I believe children should be mature enough to either agree with what they are being taught or to reject it if they feel it's not right with their conscience. Regrettably, a lot of kids are never really given the free choice because to go against their parent in this matter often results in being ostracized from the family, as well as the friends and community members they grew up with. As a result it is sometimes very difficult for people to follow their own path as adults, without serious confusion and self doubt.
There are many things being taught to children that I don't believe innocent children should be concerned with, but that's a subject for another forum, and I'm not out to antagonize anybody or prompt a for or against discussion.
A personal belief system is something everybody has to figure out for themselves eventually, because it is just that, a personal belief, and I think people should be given the freedom to go where their own heart and minds take them, once they are wise enough to do so.
I agree with your statements 100%. The only thing I would say is that indoctrination only occurs if you allow it to occur. I would raise your daughter in whatever faith/tradition appeals most to you. Whether or not she ends up indoctrinated is really under your control. Just as she may be taught something in school that you don't agree with and you tell her your view, the same can go for religion.
So, don't be afraid of allowing her exposure even at a young age to your faith, just make sure to temper it with questions and let her know that you are open to letting her explore her faith as she gets older. Often what a child accepts as a fact now, often leads to them questioning why as they get older. As long as you give her the freedom to explore, than she will be all the better for it.
I've often found that people who don't have the exposure to some foundational religious and faith teachings are the ones who most often dive headlong into a religion looking for answers and become blinded by the belief and incapable of questioning it.
it's not a deal breaker to most though...Many ultra conservative churches will actually expel for breaking their rules. And paul never actually says anything about pre marital sex he mentions sexual immorality....
That's open to translation...though I will bow to what one must assume is your greater facility with Koine Greek (I'm assuming you're not a proponent of Aramaic or Hebrew primacy for Pauline texts).
Quote:
Originally Posted by paganmama80
And actually paul ins't very anti woman. In several epistles he greets women and thanks them for the work he does for the church...and even states women can prophecy within the church.
That's somewhat akin to saying Strom Thurmond clearly wasn't prejudiced because he managed to conceive a half-black child. Paul is notorious for his placement of women in a subservient position in marriage, the church, and society, and demonstrates this in several places throughout his writings.
Meh - organized religion is a crock. Anyone who does just a smidge of research into the history of their religion (whichever one that it may be) would see that.
Not to say there is no God or higher power or whatever. But following a manmade religion with manmade rules makes one a sheeple to the highest extent.
Perhaps, but reiligion provides more than just dogma. The traditions provide a connection to the past and a commonality among communities across the globe. There are very few things that one can participate in that has such a strong history and rich tradition as organized religion. At it's purest it is a beautiful thing.
I understand where the cynicism comes from and there is plenty to critique with all religions, but I feel they still have their place in our society as a bridge to the past and a pacemaker for a rapidly changing society. I think kids can do with a little grounding in history and tradition and the added bonus of beginning to discover their own beliefs is just a bonus.
I grew up in an officially Catholic home, but my parents became less and less religious as the years went by. All that was left was a) superstition and b) the fear of death and hell that had been instilled by their own parents.
At school there were religious classes just like math or English classes. They tried to indoctrinate us, but failed, at least in my case.
I grew pretty pissed by all that nonsense so I officially left the Catholic Church as soon as I was legally able to. In a semi-rural environment that came as a little shock to neighbors and even my parents, but who cares... I am glad I left and turned toward more interesting and meaningful things.
Since I am a lonely rider, I never missed the community thing, either.
I don't have kids, yet, but I will try to turn them into humane atheists. Thus of course I could not stand a religious woman in my life who might try to turn them into religious people, too.
That's open to translation...though I will bow to what one must assume is your greater facility with Koine Greek (I'm assuming you're not a proponent of Aramaic or Hebrew primacy for Pauline texts).
No,while i do believe there were ones of that nature they are separate from the pauline texts. And i know smatterings of greek, but in this i rely on more educated interpretations then i ever could.
That's somewhat akin to saying Strom Thurmond clearly wasn't prejudiced because he managed to conceive a half-black child. Paul is notorious for his placement of women in a subservient position in marriage, the church, and society, and demonstrates this in several places throughout his writings.
The only one i remember he gave that showed an anti woman stance was in 1 Corinthians. You also have to remember not every epistle is believed to have been written by him.
How are you doing it? Are you letting them make the choice? Or having them go to where you worship and let them choose at a certain age. We try to exspose our kids to different beliefs.....and want to let them choose one day. What do you do?
We're Catholic. As a family. That's our faith and religion, and my kids are being brought up with it. As individual human beings, they have the right to make whatever decisions in life all along. That's our human right. I will love my kids no matter what they choose in life.
I encourage interfaith understanding as well. I was an agnostic Philosophy major in university, and later converted as a 27 yr old adult. Although raised in a loosely protestant home (holiday services), I studied many of the world religions and respect aspects of all. But I found that in admiring all religions equally, no religions were holy to me. In a Hinduism class, the professor told me that we don't choose our religion. It chooses us. Where you live, what your culture is, what "speaks" to you, etc. I found this very interesting. But he also said that we must answer the call, or live an unexamined life. I fundamentally agreed with this in my core.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you have a 10,000 foot view of many religions and understand/respect aspects of them all as I do and did. But, I later realized that I had been only been preparing for my path. I realized that faith is not a belief to be studied. It is experience (something I had yet to do)...
Osho says, belief is of the mind, and faith is of the being. Belief belongs to the realm of concepts and systems, whereas faith is one's immediate experience." "The Great Zen Master Ta Hui" - Osho
Your children will grow to learn what they live (their experience) - whatever it is. If it is being raised in a particular faith, or in faithless "belief(s)", or indifference/confusion. If we as parents are racist, atheist, kind, patient, abusive, etc. they'll learn it. If they're raised in faith, they'll know what faith is on a fundamental level (an experiential level). If they are raised with religion without faith, I believe it's harder to find that deep faith as an adult unless they choose to seek it as an adult. But if their past experience didn't include faith, why should they seek it as an adult?
They are but the most important belief....nay the only one that matters is understanding the sacrifice of Christ and living your life as closely as you can to him. You could get a group of friends in a shack and still be called the church. The rest of the bit in pieces of every church is just commentary and not really important to what Christianity is. You also have to understand we show our child one religion....not various aspects of every one....they go to catholic church....not every branch. I want them to understand different beliefs before they decide what they follow.
I applaud you.
I hope that your kids grow up with a strong christian faith.
We're Catholic. As a family. That's our faith and religion, and my kids are being brought up with it. As individual human beings, they have the right to make whatever decisions in life all along. That's our human right. I will love my kids no matter what they choose in life.
I encourage interfaith understanding as well. I was an agnostic Philosophy major in university, and later converted as a 27 yr old adult. Although raised in a loosely protestant home (holiday services), I studied many of the world religions and respect aspects of all. But I found that in admiring all religions equally, no religions were holy to me. In a Hinduism class, the professor told me that we don't choose our religion. It chooses us. Where you live, what your culture is, what "speaks" to you, etc. I found this very interesting. But he also said that we must answer the call, or live an unexamined life. I fundamentally agreed with this in my core.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you have a 10,000 foot view of many religions and understand/respect aspects of them all as I do and did. But, I later realized that I had been only been preparing for my path. I realized that faith is not a belief to be studied. It is experience (something I had yet to do)...
Osho says, belief is of the mind, and faith is of the being. Belief belongs to the realm of concepts and systems, whereas faith is one's immediate experience." "The Great Zen Master Ta Hui" - Osho
Your children will grow to learn what they live (their experience) - whatever it is. If it is being raised in a particular faith, or in faithless "belief(s)", or indifference/confusion. If we as parents are racist, atheist, kind, patient, abusive, etc. they'll learn it. If they're raised in faith, they'll know what faith is on a fundamental level (an experiential level). If they are raised with religion without faith, I believe it's harder to find that deep faith as an adult unless they choose to seek it as an adult. But if their past experience didn't include faith, why should they seek it as an adult?
Then they don't, and i am not concerned really,because faith is really not important to me.
I applaud you.
I hope that your kids grow up with a strong christian faith.
Eh why would that matter?
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