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I've seen worse children than that learn via the firm approach. You just repeatedly walk them back to their beds with a monotone voice It takes all night and multiple nights. You don't give in or you lose because all of that crying is dramatics to manipulate you by the time a child is 4 years old. Eventually, the child will stay in his/her bed. You give up a few weeks of sleep, but you avoid years of losing sleep the other way. By the time they are 4, it's not called "cry it out." Cry it out is for babies. By the time they are 4, it's called "no more manipulating parents with drama." You don't just suddenly put her in her room and shut the door. You give her warning by talking positively about it for a few weeks prior. Perhaps decorate her room with her to prepare it for the big day---making it clear that the big day is coming. Then when the big day comes, you buckle down, get a backbone and don't let a 4 year old manipulate.
For my daughter, I never treat her cries as "manipulative" nor do I say things like "fake crying". Instead I focus on my behavior and that speaks volumes to her about the kind of person I am (patient but unbending for SOME things depending on her age). Crying is something she does, it is not something that happens to me.
If parents are being manipulated, the parents allowed it, so to say "no more manipulating parents with drama" is putting all the blame on the child when they are simply doing something they did in the past.
I agree that giving a warning is a great idea. That is what I do for almost all separations with my daughter. During the day, I tell her "tonight you stay with dad." When the time comes for me to leave (in the beginning I gave signs 1 hour before I had to leave), I let her hug me as many times as she wanted and tell her "I love you. Dad loves you. Stay with dad." Now, she only needs a couple of hugs and he is able to put her to sleep.
It was hard to hear her cry and still is hard, but I did not feel like I had to harden my heart. She was fine before I left, she can be fine after I leave. It is her choice because I left her in good hands.
I am doing the same with daycare but taking a different approach. I am just glad I found a daycare willing to put up with me.
Which leads us to wonder why you are posting in a thread where a mother WANTS her 4 year old out!
This thread isn't about cosleeping. It's about getting a 4 year old out of a bed! Read what the OP said in her first post
Well so far the majority of the advice is all about letting him cry (which btw the op mentioned in her very first post that it wouldn't work) and I am just saying that it's not going to work for every child since children are people and people have different personalities and all. There are other posters who have said the same thing. I also have experience with this unlike those who had their babies in a crib from day one so I do feel that I have every right to offer some advice and insight.
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Dorthy, Think about it. You're not helping the OP. You're just on your little soap box for your own purposes.
It's funny because I see you all on your soap boxes saying that letting them cry is the only way and that those who don't are letting their children manipulate them and that they don't have any boundaries and that their children are not developmentally normal and that they must have issues.
I have offered ideas such as putting a mattress on the floor in the parent's room or having the 2 year old share a bed with the 4 year old in their own room. At least I tried to think outside of the box rather then give the same old same old advice that I personally know won't work for every child despite people's insistence that there is a one size fits all solution.
You obviously have never had a high need child then have you. I'm offended by people trying to psychoanalyze my child who they have never met and who is perfectly normal. I have brought up the intensity and length of some of dd's meltdown with her pediatrician and she agrees that it's just her personality. She's intense, she's sensitive, she's a perfectionist. She's also very intelligent, very sweet and very funny. No issues here.
That's where you are very wrong! My first child was VERY high need! Thank God I had my garden right outside the back door so that I could escape during nap time. It was my very presence that kept him awake. If he could hear me, he screamed until he threw up. If he thought I could hear him, he screamed! He needed complete silence to go to sleep. The very minute I showed up to check on him, he would wake up and start screaming all over again, no matter how quiet I tried to be. He was so sensitive that he KNEW if I was in the other room. Some parents need to learn to leave their children be, so that they CAN rest!
For my daughter, I never treat her cries as "manipulative" nor do I say things like "fake crying". Instead I focus on my behavior and that speaks volumes to her about the kind of person I am (patient but unbending for SOME things depending on her age). Crying is something she does, it is not something that happens to me.
If parents are being manipulated, the parents allowed it, so to say "no more manipulating parents with drama" is putting all the blame on the child when they are simply doing something they did in the past.
You're absolutely right. I'm not putting the blame on the child. I'm putting the blame on the parents. I've never said words like "fake crying." But parents giving into crying and tantrums when there isn't a legitimate need are setting themselves up to be manipulated. They taught the child to do that. It's their fault. They need to come to terms with it and deal with it. When my children had tantums, I did not give into their tantrums. I was kind, but I did not give in. As a result, my children didn't have many tantrums as young children.
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Originally Posted by crisan
I agree that giving a warning is a great idea. That is what I do for almost all separations with my daughter. During the day, I tell her "tonight you stay with dad." When the time comes for me to leave (in the beginning I gave signs 1 hour before I had to leave), I let her hug me as many times as she wanted and tell her "I love you. Dad loves you. Stay with dad." Now, she only needs a couple of hugs and he is able to put her to sleep.
I always provided my children with warnings about everything. My son especially had difficulty if he wasn't warned that he would need to stop something and redirect himself to something else. It's just fair to give warning. My children always willingly redirected themselves to whatever needed to be done if they were given at warning. Some things just required a 1 minute warning----like "After I finish putting on my makeup, I'm going to help you get dressed in a minute." Other things needed longer warnings---like starting the bedtime ritual with bathtime. I always gave 15 minute warning in 5 minute increments.
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Originally Posted by crisan
It was hard to hear her cry and still is hard, but I did not feel like I had to harden my heart. She was fine before I left, she can be fine after I leave. It is her choice because I left her in good hands.
I am doing the same with daycare but taking a different approach. I am just glad I found a daycare willing to put up with me.
I've been on the other end of this and I gaurantee that they are fine when the parents leave. I've seen parents have difficulty separating from their child because the child cried and carried on so much. The child instantly stopped crying after the parents left. The parents don't know that. Most dont' believe it. But I've seen so many children instantly turn into delightfully happy children after their parents were out of earshot.
As an older child, my son would do something similiar but not outright tantruming. He'd give me a hard time about somewhere he had to go, like boy scouts. He would get out of the car mad. I'd ask how he was when he walked in the door and he always walked in the door in a cheerful mood! It was always an act just for me. I'd just let him rant in the car and remind calmly him what a good time he always has when he gets there. He'd be so mad. Just the other day, he was reminiscing about all the great times he had at boy scouts and he thanked me for making him go and never giving into his fits.
You obviously have never had a high need child then have you.
My son was a very challenging baby. You have no idea.
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Originally Posted by Dorthy
I have brought up the intensity and length of some of dd's meltdown with her pediatrician and she agrees that it's just her personality. She's intense, she's sensitive, she's a perfectionist. She's also very intelligent, very sweet and very funny. No issues here.
I wouldn't easily write that off as personality. That sounds like anxiety.
Even though I've never met her, I'd say I'm probably right since you've already shared that she has separation anxiety. Anxieties usually present in multiple forms.
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Originally Posted by Dorthy
Well so far the majority of the advice is all about letting him cry (which btw the op mentioned in her very first post that it wouldn't work) and I am just saying that it's not going to work for every child since children are people and people have different personalities and all. There are other posters who have said the same thing. I also have experience with this unlike those who had their babies in a crib from day one so I do feel that I have every right to offer some advice and insight.
It's funny because I see you all on your soap boxes saying that letting them cry is the only way and that those who don't are letting their children manipulate them and that they don't have any boundaries and that their children are not developmentally normal and that they must have issues.
I have offered ideas such as putting a mattress on the floor in the parent's room or having the 2 year old share a bed with the 4 year old in their own room. At least I tried to think outside of the box rather then give the same old same old advice that I personally know won't work for every child despite people's insistence that there is a one size fits all solution.
I've offered other advice too. I just think it's important to keep the OP's goals in mind.
Proudly saying you plan to let your daughter stay in your bed until she's ready is hurtful to the OP IMO.
I don't think you intend it to be that way. I just think that you forgot that the OP's goal is to get her son out of her bed ASAP.
You're absolutely right. I'm not putting the blame on the child. I'm putting the blame on the parents. I've never said words like "fake crying." But parents giving into crying and tantrums when there isn't a legitimate need are setting themselves up to be manipulated. They taught the child to do that. It's their fault. They need to come to terms with it and deal with it. When my children had tantums, I did not give into their tantrums. I was kind, but I did not give in. As a result, my children didn't have many tantrums as young children.
That is interesting that you say that because the children I most often see having tantrums, especially in public, are the ones who are told that they are faking. Their parents, too, did not give in but their attitude was not very nice.
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Originally Posted by Hopes
I always provided my children with warnings about everything. My son especially had difficulty if he wasn't warned that he would need to stop something and redirect himself to something else. It's just fair to give warning. My children always willingly redirected themselves to whatever needed to be done if they were given at warning. Some things just required a 1 minute warning----like "After I finish putting on my makeup, I'm going to help you get dressed in a minute." Other things needed longer warnings---like starting the bedtime ritual with bathtime. I always gave 15 minute warning in 5 minute increments.
I've been on the other end of this and I gaurantee that they are fine when the parents leave. I've seen parents have difficulty separating from their child because the child cried and carried on so much. The child instantly stopped crying after the parents left. The parents don't know that. Most dont' believe it. But I've seen so many children instantly turn into delightfully happy children after their parents were out of earshot.
As an older child, my son would do something similiar but not outright tantruming. He'd give me a hard time about somewhere he had to go, like boy scouts. He would get out of the car mad. I'd ask how he was when he walked in the door and he always walked in the door in a cheerful mood! It was always an act just for me. I'd just let him rant in the car and remind calmly him what a good time he always has when he gets there. He'd be so mad. Just the other day, he was reminiscing about all the great times he had at boy scouts and he thanked me for making him go and never giving into his fits.
Well, I do have a plan and it makes me most comfortable and confident. But first know this: I am not trying to stop her from crying. She will cry.
When my husband wants to take her out by himself, she usually always wants me to come along. In the past, I would go along. Now, if I can't, I just sit at the door and encourage her to go. She tries to pull me, I say, "No, you go. I stay." She goes back and forth trying to persuade me, crying, stomping and eventually she goes. This is what I am going to do. I am just going to stay put in one place and encourage her to join the class. Trust me she will.
I know, it sounds drawn out but I do this for several reasons:
1. I want her to form an attachment to a person of her choosing. Not because she had no choice. I have been in day cares and have seen little ones cry the whole time I was there.
2. I want it to be her choice to join the group. I know many disagree with giving children choices but this has worked for us in the past. I think it will give her a sense of "I am my own person." It also reinforces that I can make my own choices and stick to them.
3. I want to let her know that I like the care givers and that I trust them.
That is interesting that you say that because the children I most often see having tantrums, especially in public, are the ones who are told that they are faking. Their parents, too, did not give in but their attitude was not very nice.
As I stated before, I have never said the words faking. As a matter of fact, I never said one word when my children had a tantrum. LOL When my children had a tantum in public (it only happened once with each of them), I simply stood there and waited for the tantrum to end. They didn't tantrum again. They got nothing out of it. Remember, I said I was kind. I was not cruel or mean to my childen. I simply ignored the behavior and it stopped.
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Originally Posted by crisan
Well, I do have a plan and it makes me most comfortable and confident. But first know this: I am not trying to stop her from crying. She will cry.
When my husband wants to take her out by himself, she usually always wants me to come along. In the past, I would go along. Now, if I can't, I just sit at the door and encourage her to go. She tries to pull me, I say, "No, you go. I stay." She goes back and forth trying to persuade me, crying, stomping and eventually she goes. This is what I am going to do. I am just going to stay put in one place and encourage her to join the class. Trust me she will.
That's very healthy. You're not giving into her. You're being kind and encouraging, but you're not getting into the car and going with her. You're handling that exactly the way I would handle it.
I read an earlier thread about a family co-sleeping and how it's working for them... still not sure how they function but I CANNOT!!
I have two sons 4&2. I made the mistake of bringing the 4yo in bed with me when he was nursing. He stopped nursing at 1yo but he never left the bed. He was always big for his age and eventually asked to be moved to his own bed - BUT WITH ME! He refuses to sleep alone. He says he's scared.
I'M SOOOOO over it. Please help! Has anyone been in the same situation? It's not like I can let him cry it out - he can get up from his bed. I've tried rationalizing with him, bribing him, offering to buy him a new bed. If I so much as move an inch his head pops up to see if I'm trying to sneak out. It's 3am on the east coast as I type this and I successfully snuck out (after the first two attempts failed) I'm always tired and mad and beginning to feel resentment towards him.
PLEASE help!!
You probably need to transition him gradually from everything I have seen you say in the thread.
Does he nap? Do you have to stay with him at naptime? Is it perhaps being a bit afraid of the dark?
Perhaps a large stuffed animal would help him feel like he had something to snuggle with?
Again, the standard method for getting a child to accept this was already given. You put your child to bed, using whatever routine is comfortable. We always had 2 stories, a cuddle and I sang to my kids (I still sing my granddaughter to sleep when she is here, though she is usually awake when I finish and goes to sleep on her own - she's 8 though).
You say goodnight and leave. You can start by sitting in a chair near the bed perhaps if that will help him. Gradually move the chair closer to the bedroom door and then outside the door. If he gets up, you put him back to bed without talking to him after ONE time of saying *it's time for sleep now and mom is going to sleep in her own bed.*
If you do this consistently, it may take a few nights or even a few weeks, but it is better than years of sleep deprivation, imo.
Good luck with the transition and please let us know how you did.
As I stated before, I have never said the words faking. As a matter of fact, I never said one word when my children had a tantrum. LOL When my children had a tantum in public (it only happened once with each of them), I simply stood there and waited for the tantrum to end. They didn't tantrum again. They got nothing out of it.
That's very healthy. You're not giving into her. You're being kind and encouraging, but you're not getting into the car and going with her. You're handling that exactly the way I would handle it.
I always have to chuckle when I see "faking it" attached to throwing a tantrum. To those dealing with the tantrum being thrown....there's no faking involved...it's a very real tantrum indeed! However, it's still a tantrum. It's the child KNOWING that the adult can't stand to hear them squalling and wailing. Those protective instincts (and survival instincts) are meant to protect your child. Instinctively, those little buggers know this...not the whys and wherefores of it, but they know that you don't want to hear that noise...you want to make it stop. It therefore becomes a "who has the most stamina....you or them?" When we give in to them wailing, for no "good reason", when it goes against what is healthy and good for them, we are reinforcing bad habits and behaviors, therefore, we are harming our children. Once you've allowed yourself to establish that pattern of behavior, it's tougher than heck to fix and is horribly confusing for the children. Look, the bottom line is this...sometimes ya gotta play the bad guy. They don't KNOW what's good for them...we SHOULD. Let's do what's right by our kids! Jeez y'all, it's just that simple!
The key to tantrums, is to not set up the situation for them to happen. Don't let them get overtired, over stimulated, hungry, thristy. Same with the bed time tantrum. Don't let kids play rough house with dad before bed...this whole bedtime routine starts about 1.5 hours before bed. Make the bed time the same time every night. Help Mom clean the kitchen, (no tv), help mom set out clothes for tomorrow, help mom make lunches for next day or fold laundry, some boring mundane household task, brush teeth, take a bath, Read the same book (or choose a book), some kids love this, some don't. If I had a dollar for every time I read "Goodnight Moon". The same jammy, the same bunny, the same blankie...the more boring, and drawn out the bedtime routine, the easier the transition. Everything is predictable, happens the same way every night. The problem is when it goes from hanging with mom and dad watching tv to slam dunk in a room alone. That is not enough of a transition time. Make your own routine.
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There are other posters who have said the same thing. I also have experience with this unlike those who had their babies in a crib from day one so I do feel that I have every right to offer some advice and insight. 
My first child was VERY high need! Thank God I had my garden right outside the back door so that I could escape during nap time. It was my very presence that kept him awake. If he could hear me, he screamed until he threw up. If he thought I could hear him, he screamed! He needed complete silence to go to sleep. The very minute I showed up to check on him, he would wake up and start screaming all over again, no matter how quiet I tried to be. He was so sensitive that he KNEW if I was in the other room. Some parents need to learn to leave their children be, so that they CAN rest!
